Is the McCain/Palin ticket the "christian" choice?

[achilles12604]

My wife is experiencing something she has never dealt with before. She is voting for Obama and her entire family is voting for McCain. She is being criticized and attacked by her family for her choice. They are telling her that McCain is the "Christian" choice and since she is voting for Obama she must not be a Christian anymore.

Frankly I am Pissed. But I choose to see past the red at an interesting assumption on the part of her family. Their condemnation is based upon the assumption that Christians would want to vote for the McCain ticket. I question this assumption for the following reasons.

1) McCain/Palin support Christianity in Govt. Palin especially supports the teaching of creationism in school. However, Jesus clearly divides religion and politics.

Matthew 22:20-22
20and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"

21"Caesar's," they replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

22When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

John 18:35-37
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"

36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

We have many examples, both in history and in today's world, of countries who are run by religion. From modern day Iran, to Spain in 1478, we can see the harm done by religion when mixed with political power.

So I would disagree with McCain and Palin. I do not feel that religion should be mixed with politics and governing bodies. I think Jesus teaches against this idea and history has proven its dangers.



2) Obama wants to talk with our friends and our enemies to try and establish peace.

I think this is a very biblically inspired idea. Jesus teaches

A Brother Who Sins Against You
15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

Teddy Roosevelt stated "Speak softly and carry a big stick". This is a far cry from the McCain/Palin approach of "Threaten and then hope we have enough troops to back up our roar."

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Jesus clearly is against violence with the exception of self preservation. So why should we approach other countries with the intention of using violence if we don't get our way? Are we truly safer now that we have invaded and destabalized Iraq? Did that act of aggression and fail diplomacy aid our country at all?

3) McCain and Palin are against gay marriage. They are against allowing couples basic rights simply because of their biological makeup. I defy you to find one place where Jesus decries homosexuality specifically. Where does Jesus judge homosexuals? Why is this "sin" such a sticking point for modern Christians when Jesus spent far more of his time denoucing judgemental religious people?

4) Social programs. The republican party has often been against these programs. Yet Jesus teaches us to give to those who ask us. He teaches us to care for the poor and weak. Obama wants to support these programs.

The common defense here is "I should not have to work so someone with 8 kids can stay home on welfare." I agree with this. However, welfare is not used solely by people taking advantage of it. Whoopie Goldberg was on welfare in her earlier life. She was a "welfare mother". Yet today she is successful and contributes to our system.

So don't feed into generalities especially without evidence. If you want to argue that welfare should be abolished because everyone on it is lazy and doesn't want to work, you should be able to prove that statement first.


There are 4 reasons why I can see that the republican party and the McCain/Palin ticket are LESS "Christian" than Obama.


I offer the following for debate:

1) Which party represents the more "Christian" party and why?

2) Which cantidates represent the better "Christian" ideas and why?

[JoeyKnothead]

It is unamerican, perhaps to vote based on a candidate's religion, but not unconstitutional. A voter can use whatever criteria they want to choose a candidate. The only thing that no religious test for public office guarantees is that no one is denied the right to run for public office based upon their religion.

Okay, I'm wrong on all counts.

[Vladd44]

Sorry achilles12604,

Perhaps I should lay off the crack..or at least quit impugning Frank.

As none of us know Wright, or his history, or the vast majority of his sermons, or really anything about him, I don't think any of us are really in a position to make ANY claims about when he did what. We are even less qualified to know when he BELIEVED what.

I have no problem judging people by the words they choose to allow come out of their mouths. I also have no issue with defining what he did by credible verifiable reports of what he did, exp when I can go online and find video. If he didn't believe the things he said, well that creates a new option, that he is just a hypocrite.

A) Wright was born 9-22-41. This means that he grew up before the civil rights movement and was a teen/young twenties during the civil rights movement. He als grew up in Philadelphia. I think it is fair to say that this would indeed strongly impact a person's perspective on the world. I as a white, middle class, ex-military, police officer, am even willing to take this into consideration when hearing him vent his anger and frustration. Do I agree with the few quotes we have heard? Absolutly not. But I do understand them.

Either way, it does nothing to appease the logic of a much younger Obama choosing to plant his butt (and his family) on a pew to listen to such a bitter, angry and hateful man.

I have heard this point several times from a friend of mine here in TX. But if I accept that rationale then I am only enabling the mindset. This is nothing more than white guilt in action.

There was something in the message that appealed to Obama, what is his excuse?

You happily painted T Roosevelt as a racist, I guess that whole thing about recognizing the time in which people lived excuse Jeremiah got does not apply to him.

But luckily for me, I am not voting for T Roosevelt, nor has any candidate ever been to his church. Simply a tactic of diversion from the weaknesses of the Obama Messiah.

Obama was born August 4, 1961. This makes him 20 years younger than Wright. H doesn't even remember the civil right's movement. He did not have these experiences to shade his perspective on the world. In addition to this he was raised by his white mother from Kansas. I am not sure how much more of a NON BLACK LIBERTARIAN model you can have than a white mother from Kansas unless it was his mother's parents who then took him from the age of 10 until he graduated high school in Hawaii.

But he was still drawn to the white hate message. Perhaps you should read his books.

I found solice in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race

Any distinction between good and bad whites held negligible meaning

We were always playing on the white man's court by the white man's rules.

That hate hadn't gone away blaming white people— some cruel, some ignorant, sometimes a single face, sometimes just a faceless image of a system claiming power over our lives.

Re .

Nothing new there, Categorically denied generic statements, no specifics. Along with even a bump favorable towards Wright.

He says all of the statement he disagrees with, but how can he even know what is defined as controversial. At one point he claimed that he had never heard them say anything controversial, but later admitted that he had.

The second is just a 35 seconds of the media reporting an Obama speech, no clips, no quotes.

The last is the Obama race speech, I watched it twice already, I do not wish to see it again. As I said, a speech about America's shortcomings, but not dealing with the questions about his.

The most segregated hour in america right? And what kind of church does Obama go to? A Black one....hmmmmmm. Now that is Change we can believe in.

I seriously doubt that Obama supports the anger, hatred and division purported by the Black Liberation Movement.

I would say I have no idea, but as with anyone going to a white power church or has made themselves a part of any other racist entity, he is unfit to lead.

I do what I do, he does what politicians do. So what happened in Philadelphia where he had to respond to the soundbites, he responded as a politician.

It sure sounded like a slur coming out of Wright's mouth, I am sure there is youtube out there for it.


As far as why Obama made his speech, well I guess that is a matter of interpretation, I think it is because of exactly what Wright said. Obama is nothing more than a politician, and it was the political expedient thing to do.

To imply that he knew this guy for 20 years and this came as a shock to him required one to deny any sense of reality.

I cannot begin to know what is in Obama's mind, but I can judge him by the people he chooses to surround himself with.

Tell me . . . if someone was outspoken against a particular religion, do you think that person would be elected? How about a certain race?

Depends on the religion, some have made a strong anti muslim case and have been elected.

Race? Speaking as I was previously in present terms, NO.

I suggest you research Winston Churchhill and how he viewed Ghandi and the entire Indian race and then tell me a white man with extreme racism can't be elected.

I was speaking in present tense. George Wallace used the word nigger in speeches and was elected Gov of Alabama. But I seriously doubt Wallace of Churchhill could be elected in the current climate.

[achilles12604]

Sorry achilles12604,

Perhaps I should lay off the crack..or at least quit impugning Frank.

As none of us know Wright, or his history, or the vast majority of his sermons, or really anything about him, I don't think any of us are really in a position to make ANY claims about when he did what. We are even less qualified to know when he BELIEVED what.

I have no problem judging people by the words they choose to allow come out of their mouths. I also have no issue with defining what he did by credible verifiable reports of what he did, exp when I can go online and find video. If he didn't believe the things he said, well that creates a new option, that he is just a hypocrite.

A) Wright was born 9-22-41. This means that he grew up before the civil rights movement and was a teen/young twenties during the civil rights movement. He als grew up in Philadelphia. I think it is fair to say that this would indeed strongly impact a person's perspective on the world. I as a white, middle class, ex-military, police officer, am even willing to take this into consideration when hearing him vent his anger and frustration. Do I agree with the few quotes we have heard? Absolutly not. But I do understand them.

Either way, it does nothing to appease the logic of a much younger Obama choosing to plant his butt (and his family) on a pew to listen to such a bitter, angry and hateful man.

I have heard this point several times from a friend of mine here in TX. But if I accept that rationale then I am only enabling the mindset. This is nothing more than white guilt in action.

There was something in the message that appealed to Obama, what is his excuse?

You happily painted T Roosevelt as a racist, I guess that whole thing about recognizing the time in which people lived excuse Jeremiah got does not apply to him.

But luckily for me, I am not voting for T Roosevelt, nor has any candidate ever been to his church. Simply a tactic of diversion from the weaknesses of the Obama Messiah.

Obama was born August 4, 1961. This makes him 20 years younger than Wright. H doesn't even remember the civil right's movement. He did not have these experiences to shade his perspective on the world. In addition to this he was raised by his white mother from Kansas. I am not sure how much more of a NON BLACK LIBERTARIAN model you can have than a white mother from Kansas unless it was his mother's parents who then took him from the age of 10 until he graduated high school in Hawaii.

But he was still drawn to the white hate message. Perhaps you should read his books.

I found solice in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race

Any distinction between good and bad whites held negligible meaning

We were always playing on the white man's court by the white man's rules.

That hate hadn't gone away blaming white people— some cruel, some ignorant, sometimes a single face, sometimes just a faceless image of a system claiming power over our lives.

Re .

Nothing new there, Categorically denied generic statements, no specifics. Along with even a bump favorable towards Wright.

He says all of the statement he disagrees with, but how can he even know what is defined as controversial. At one point he claimed that he had never heard them say anything controversial, but later admitted that he had.

The second is just a 35 seconds of the media reporting an Obama speech, no clips, no quotes.

The last is the Obama race speech, I watched it twice already, I do not wish to see it again. As I said, a speech about America's shortcomings, but not dealing with the questions about his.

The most segregated hour in america right? And what kind of church does Obama go to? A Black one....hmmmmmm. Now that is Change we can believe in.

I seriously doubt that Obama supports the anger, hatred and division purported by the Black Liberation Movement.

I would say I have no idea, but as with anyone going to a white power church or has made themselves a part of any other racist entity, he is unfit to lead.

I do what I do, he does what politicians do. So what happened in Philadelphia where he had to respond to the soundbites, he responded as a politician.

It sure sounded like a slur coming out of Wright's mouth, I am sure there is youtube out there for it.


As far as why Obama made his speech, well I guess that is a matter of interpretation, I think it is because of exactly what Wright said. Obama is nothing more than a politician, and it was the political expedient thing to do.

To imply that he knew this guy for 20 years and this came as a shock to him required one to deny any sense of reality.

I cannot begin to know what is in Obama's mind, but I can judge him by the people he chooses to surround himself with.

Tell me . . . if someone was outspoken against a particular religion, do you think that person would be elected? How about a certain race?

Depends on the religion, some have made a strong anti muslim case and have been elected.

Race? Speaking as I was previously in present terms, NO.

I suggest you research Winston Churchhill and how he viewed Ghandi and the entire Indian race and then tell me a white man with extreme racism can't be elected.

I was speaking in present tense. George Wallace used the word nigger in speeches and was elected Gov of Alabama. But I seriously doubt Wallace of Churchhill could be elected in the current climate.

Before I address the above I am wondering two things:

1) Why you conveniently ignored the point I made about you forming your opinion based on as you put it . . . "online videos", all of which are out of context and add up to about a sum of 30 seconds or so, but you are willing to judge not only wright, but Obama.

Tell me . . . if Wright said so many hateful things while preaching that Obama could not have missed them, why are there so few videos, and such short clips? Surely this hateful man preaching for more than 30 years would have said more than the tiny brief snippets which you are 100% sure Obama must have heard.

If you can not find a few more examples over 30 years, then you may be wrong about Wright. You are certainly wrong calling Obama a racist for listening to such trash for 30 years when in FACT (that was a key word, facts not hype are important), Obama may very well not have heard those 10 second snippets spread over the last 30 years of preaching from time to time.

Your assumptions about Obama's racism with regard to wright are based on an extremely thin assumption with a high probability of being wrong.


2) You cite 1 sentence at a time from Obama's books.

I challenge you to cite the entire page. Let us all read what he wrote in CONTEXT. I have yet to read his book so here is your chance to win a vote for McCain. You show me that each of those quotes was indeed written with the purpose of infusing racism and not as a small part of a much larger picture which you are hiding, and I will reconsider my vote.

Otherwise, I am afraid that like McCain, you are . . . how did Carl Rove put it ? ? ? ? Ah yes, failing the 100% truth test (or something like that). In short, you may very well be distorting his words by showing us only one line in a much larger picture. After all Psalms does have a verse which reads "God does not exist . . . "

[achilles12604]

By the way . . .

I took the liberty of researching your first "quote" of Obama's.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 028AArWA5M

Where is "...nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race" in Obama's book?

This is brilliant. Thanks for pointing it out. I did a little research (which of course is beyond the capacity of many of the simple-minded folk here). The quote in question was actually made by a reviewer writing about Obama's books in the American Conservative Magazine:

http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_03_12/...


Hilariously, this statement, by a reviewer, has then been quoted as if it were actually written by Barack Obama himself.

Wow, it took me 2 minutes to figure that out. I would almost feel sorry for the conservatives gullible enough to buy that stuff if only they weren't so full of hate.

I would like to thank the dude above who posted this link, to a conservative anti-Obama site, that quotes the line by the reviewer as if it were by Obama himself. If you search the page, you can find the part where they attribute that quote to him, with a link back to the original review article:

http://cache.search.yahoo-ht2.akadns.net...

AH-HA! Found it!

It's not Obama's words, it's Steve Sailer's, writing for The American Conservative.

http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_03_12/...

"And yet, at least through age 33 when he wrote Dreams from My Father, he found solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against his mother’s race."

Nice try to spread lies and hate, right wingers.

Let me know when you find out about the rest of your "quotes".

Remember, we want page numbers and full quotes in context.

Please demonstrate for us all that you are not simply reading and accepting the anti-obama distortions (LIES and SMEARS), of the power charged right. Please show us that Obama's own quotes from his books are in fact exactly what you make them out to be . . .

let me quote you here . . .

That Obama was drawn to the white hate messages and that I should read his books. Actually strike the last part. Perhaps we should ALL read his books instead of being prejudice against him and ASSUMING that the right wing conservatives words about him are 100% accurate.


Remember, Obama is going to raise EVERYONES taxes. Hmm, anyone else here think McCain is STILL spreading lies and distortions for other people to read and believe without question? Just like religious folks. "DON'T QUESTION! JUST LISTEN AND BELIEVE!"

[McCulloch]

When McCain first announced that his VP running mate would be Palin, I was briefly amused and pleased but surprised. Shortly after I realized that he meant Sarah Palin not Michael Palin.

[Vladd44]

First let me say that I stand corrected on the quote, having read the book, it disgusted me enough to presume it was there. I apologize.

1) Why you conveniently ignored the point I made about you forming your opinion based on as you put it . . . "online videos", all of which are out of context and add up to about a sum of 30 seconds or so, but you are willing to judge not only wright, but Obama.

Hardly ignore like you ignoring and misdirecting away from the reality that a "white liberationist" would not be even close to winning dog catcher...and rightfully so.

Tell me . . . if Wright said so many hateful things while preaching that Obama could not have missed them, why are there so few videos, and such short clips?

Hmm, lets see, how many videos do we have of Wright "preaching" in general? I don't see many clips of the god hates fags pastor either, so should I presume that the few short ones I have seen are a misrepresentation?

I heard a pastor talk about the daughter of another pastor in which had buried her dad the previous day as a jezebel, but I don't see a single clip on youtube. I have known that fucker for over 20 years believe me there is no shortage of crap spewed from his mouth from the pulpit. But perhaps the lack of 4 hour clips on youtube should convince me otherwise.

I do know what black liberation theology is, and I know that anyone that provides aid or comfort to that perspective is MY enemy. For me Obama going to that church is enough. In the beginning I thought there was potential for the better in him, but literally the day I learned of [strike]Frank[/strike] Jeremiah Wright my shift to thinking Obama was just another turd began.

If you can not find a few more examples over 30 years, then you may be wrong about Wright.

A black liberationist is my enemy. Just as a kkk member, a gay basher or any other person that chooses to enlist with the parties of hate.

You are certainly wrong calling Obama a racist for listening to such trash for 30 years when in FACT (that was a key word, facts not hype are important), Obama may very well not have heard those 10 second snippets spread over the last 30 years of preaching from time to time.

At the risk of being accused of quoting out of context, first Obama said there was nothing controversial about his church, to later be followed by a yes I did hear controversial things after the Wright issue blew up and he had little choice to admit it. That does not make him a racist, only a lying politician.

But it does illustrate that Obama DID hear inflamatory remarks while at trinity. And chose to keep his butt..and his family in the pews.

Your assumptions about Obama's racism with regard to wright are based on an extremely thin assumption with a high probability of being wrong.

No more than the guy going to the klan rally with a can of gasoline and wood. He chose to go to a racially divisive church for 20 years, hardly something that one passively does.

Obama may not be a racist, perhaps he is only trying to assuage his own white guilt the same way many of his weak kneed anglo supporters are doing.

I challenge you to cite the entire page. Let us all read what he wrote in CONTEXT.

I am sure Otseng would not be to pleased with me bringing a potential copyright DMCA issue to the forum.

I have yet to read his book so here is your chance to win a vote for McCain.

I have no desire to win votes for McCain, I will not be voting for him. I am a libertarian, unfortunately my party chose an ex-republican stooge. So this year I will be voting green. McKinney & Clemente 2008.

failing the 100% truth test (or something like that). In short, you may very well be distorting his words by showing us only one line in a much larger picture.

Your presumption of a deliberate effort to distort is sad indeed, but I expect little more from someone once they have drank the Obama Kool-aid.

While the facts that Obama chose to sit in a racist church for 20 years, titled his book after a sermon from his racist pastor and chose to raise his children in this environment are not much to those who wish to see Obama walk on water, the reality I can prove he is a liar.

So before you spew accusations of me being untruthful check out your damn candidate.

[micatala]

Moderator Intervention

I will ask Vladd to tone down his colorful language.

I heard a pastor talk about the daughter of another pastor in which had buried her dad the previous day as a jezebel, but I don't see a single clip on youtube. I have known that f**** for over 20 years believe me there is no shortage of crap spewed from his mouth from the pulpit. But perhaps the lack of 4 hour clips on youtube should convince me otherwise.

. . . . . literally the day I learned of [strike]Frank[/strike] Jeremiah Wright my shift to thinking Obama was just another turd began.


So before you spew accusations of me being untruthful check out your damn candidate.

[achilles12604]

First let me say that I stand corrected on the quote, having read the book, it disgusted me enough to presume it was there. I apologize.

1) Why you conveniently ignored the point I made about you forming your opinion based on as you put it . . . "online videos", all of which are out of context and add up to about a sum of 30 seconds or so, but you are willing to judge not only wright, but Obama.

Hardly ignore like you ignoring and misdirecting away from the reality that a "white liberationist" would not be even close to winning dog catcher...and rightfully so.

I am not sure what a white would need to be liberated from. But regardless, I will presume you mean that any member of a fringe group would not be elected. I concure. An active KKK member would not be elected today.

Interestingly this poses a problem for your argument in so much as Obama is very close to being elected. So the majority of voters must not have heard any evidence that Obama is in fact racist. This however is simply an argument from popularity and as such, is not valid in debate. But it is still an interesting point.

Tell me . . . if Wright said so many hateful things while preaching that Obama could not have missed them, why are there so few videos, and such short clips?

Hmm, lets see, how many videos do we have of Wright "preaching" in general? I don't see many clips of the god hates fags pastor either, so should I presume that the few short ones I have seen are a misrepresentation?

Actually the BBC did a very in depth investigation into the Westboro Baptist church. If such an in depth study was done in Obama's church, then you would have a point. Unfortunately, all we have is a few brief "rants" of sermons given in the heat of the moment. We have nothing to compare to the information the BBC gathered on the Westboro Baptist Church. Allow me to link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_H ... in_America

In short, your comparison is null and void as we have a great deal of reporting about that church, and very little to judge Wright (not to mention Obama) by.

I do know what black liberation theology is, and I know that anyone that provides aid or comfort to that perspective is MY enemy. For me Obama going to that church is enough. In the beginning I thought there was potential for the better in him, but literally the day I learned of [strike]Frank[/strike] Jeremiah Wright my shift to thinking Obama was just another turd began.

Guilt by association. I have had friends guilty of DUI. I guess I should attend AA classes with them despite the fact that I have lived my life diametrically opposed to this sort of behavior.

Replace I with Obama and DUI with racism and you can probably see the problem with your analogy.

If you can not find a few more examples over 30 years, then you may be wrong about Wright.

A black liberationist is my enemy. Just as a kkk member, a gay basher or any other person that chooses to enlist with the parties of hate.

\

Seeing the world as black and white (no pun intended) is easy, but unrealistic.

You are certainly wrong calling Obama a racist for listening to such trash for 30 years when in FACT (that was a key word, facts not hype are important), Obama may very well not have heard those 10 second snippets spread over the last 30 years of preaching from time to time.

At the risk of being accused of quoting out of context, first Obama said there was nothing controversial about his church, to later be followed by a yes I did hear controversial things after the Wright issue blew up and he had little choice to admit it. That does not make him a racist, only a lying politician.

But it does illustrate that Obama DID hear inflamatory remarks while at trinity. And chose to keep his butt..and his family in the pews.

Please note that in one sentence you write that Obama admitted he heard the remarks AFTER THE WRIGHT ISSUE CAME UP, and in the next paragraph you state that Obama heard the remarks WHILE AT TRINITY. Unless you are referring to the brief time frame between January 2008 and when he left at June 2008 your comments don't make sense.

If you are referring to this 6 months, then please do note that Wright stopped preaching the December before, and thus your argument is still invalid because Obama kept his family in the church but Wright was gone by this time.

Either way, you are incorrect in this analogy.

I challenge you to cite the entire page. Let us all read what he wrote in CONTEXT.

I am sure Otseng would not be to pleased with me bringing a potential copyright DMCA issue to the forum.

Or cussing for that matter.

failing the 100% truth test (or something like that). In short, you may very well be distorting his words by showing us only one line in a much larger picture.

Your presumption of a deliberate effort to distort is sad indeed, but I expect little more from someone once they have drank the Obama Kool-aid.

Shouldn't I be dead? Oh wait, that was the comet . . .

While the facts that Obama chose to sit in a racist church for 20 years, titled his book after a sermon from his racist pastor and chose to raise his children in this environment are not much to those who wish to see Obama walk on water, the reality I can prove he is a liar.

Your assumptions are three fold

1) That the church was indeed racist. Taking the analogy you presented with Westboro clearly shows that we don't have enough information to make this claim.

2) Obama heard the racist remarks

3) Obama's children were also subject to these remarks. In church the children are almost always in their own classrooms totally away from the adult congregation.


If all 3 of your assumptions are correct, then there is an issue. If one of them is incorrect (I suggest number 2 for starters followed quickly by number 1), then you have no grounds for presenting the logical fallacy "guilt by association."

You have even less grounds for an actual argument which does not depend upon a logical fallacy.

So before you spew accusations of me being untruthful check out your damn candidate.

Who has presented facts thus far?

Who has had to retract several of his claims beginning with citing the totally wrong name and followed by incorrect quotes and assumptions?

Please rest assured . . . I have checked him out. Perhaps that is why I am voting for him.

[Vladd44]

Actually the BBC did a very in depth investigation into the Westboro Baptist church. If such an in depth study was done in Obama's church, then you would have a point. Unfortunately, all we have is a few brief "rants" of sermons given in the heat of the moment. We have nothing to compare to the information the BBC gathered on the Westboro Baptist Church. Allow me to link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_H ... in_America

In short, your comparison is null and void as we have a great deal of reporting about that church, and very little to judge Wright (not to mention Obama) by.

Yes the BBC did do a show on the most hated family in america...but almost all of it was his daughter, not him.

One very brief weird interview with the pastor himself if I recall properly. Good documentary btw.

But back to my point, how many quotes did they have of him? And all I recall are short clips not anything of great length like you expect for Wright.

A great deal reported about the Westboro church, as has been reported about Trinity. But I would hazard to guess that there is more documentation on Wright than Phelps.

Guilt by association. I have had friends guilty of DUI. I guess I should attend AA classes with them despite the fact that I have lived my life diametrically opposed to this sort of behavior.

Replace I with Obama and DUI with racism and you can probably see the problem with your analogy.

If you had went out and joined the Mothers for Drunk Driving group you might have a valid comparison. If Obama had not chosen to affiliate himself with a racist church then I would not paint him with their sins.

Seeing the world as black and white (no pun intended) is easy, but unrealistic.

I would hardly call my view black and white on the world. But if choosing to associate myself and chastise others regarding their positions on hate is black and white to you, then I guess I will stick with monochrome.

Please note that in one sentence you write that Obama admitted he heard the remarks AFTER THE WRIGHT ISSUE CAME UP, and in the next paragraph you state that Obama heard the remarks WHILE AT TRINITY. Unless you are referring to the brief time frame between January 2008 and when he left at June 2008 your comments don't make sense.

I apologize. I presumed a level of awareness of your candidates comments on the issue. I did not want to post quotes, bc I did not feel like putting entire pages of text to avoid one liners...but...here goes. I am sure that Obama really mean something else (at least according to you).

I don't think my church is actually particularly controversial." [He] is like an old uncle who says things I don't always agree with

Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes

Which is it? Nothing controversial? Or Yes, controversial?

As I said, first his stance was, Nope, nothing to see here. But when the evidence of his pastor being an anti american racist bastard (The word is in the KJV) he then switched his tune.

There is no analogy here, just another example of Obama lying.

1) That the church was indeed racist. Taking the analogy you presented with Westboro clearly shows that we don't have enough information to make this claim.

Talk about presumtion. #1 I say there are more Wright than Phelps quotes.
#2, When did Westboro become the standard in which we judge cases to have adequate information. pffft, more rhetoric.

2) Obama heard the racist remarks

3) Obama's children were also subject to these remarks. In church the children are almost always in their own classrooms totally away from the adult congregation.

If a racist pos is at the top, it can only trickle down. It is not only about clips and sound bites. The very theology itself is racist, it is a pro black anti white message.

You keep wanting to label it guilt by association. Time and again I say that association would be enough if someone were to choose to officially "associate" themselves with the KKK. Why not when the hate is spewed from another source?

Who has had to retract several of his claims beginning with citing the totally wrong name and followed by incorrect quotes and assumptions?

I retracted 1 not several quote. It was my fault and I took responsibility for it. But it does not negate the point that I was trying to make.

I also wrote Frank instead of Jeremiah, to which I also apologized. But if you somehow hold that as evidence you are right, then I will bother you no further on the issue.

Please rest assured . . . I have checked him out. Perhaps that is why I am voting for him.

Yeah....to bad you didn't see the truth.

I will now take micatala's warning to heart and take my leave. I should have known better than return.

[achilles12604]

Actually the BBC did a very in depth investigation into the Westboro Baptist church. If such an in depth study was done in Obama's church, then you would have a point. Unfortunately, all we have is a few brief "rants" of sermons given in the heat of the moment. We have nothing to compare to the information the BBC gathered on the Westboro Baptist Church. Allow me to link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_H ... in_America

In short, your comparison is null and void as we have a great deal of reporting about that church, and very little to judge Wright (not to mention Obama) by.

Yes the BBC did do a show on the most hated family in america...but almost all of it was his daughter, not him.

One very brief weird interview with the pastor himself if I recall properly. Good documentary btw.

But back to my point, how many quotes did they have of him? And all I recall are short clips not anything of great length like you expect for Wright.

A great deal reported about the Westboro church, as has been reported about Trinity. But I would hazard to guess that there is more documentation on Wright than Phelps.

The problem you have is that you are accusing the entire church of being racist, not just Wright. You made the point that Obama placed his kids in that "situation". Your attacks are against not only wright, but the entire church.

So a documentary on the racism of the Trinity Baptist church would be helpful, but alas is non-existent. So we must rely on a few very short you tube blurbs to establish how racist the church is.

Guilt by association. I have had friends guilty of DUI. I guess I should attend AA classes with them despite the fact that I have lived my life diametrically opposed to this sort of behavior.

Replace I with Obama and DUI with racism and you can probably see the problem with your analogy.

If you had went out and joined the Mothers for Drunk Driving group you might have a valid comparison. If Obama had not chosen to affiliate himself with a racist church then I would not paint him with their sins.

Why would I have to join Mothers AGAINST Drunk Driving? The analogy stands.

Obama has friends guilty of racism. Therefore he must also have a problem with racism.

I have friends guilty of DUI. Therefore I must also have a problem with driving drunk.

How do you see MADD in this picture? What would be the equivalent of MADD for Obama?

Please note that in one sentence you write that Obama admitted he heard the remarks AFTER THE WRIGHT ISSUE CAME UP, and in the next paragraph you state that Obama heard the remarks WHILE AT TRINITY. Unless you are referring to the brief time frame between January 2008 and when he left at June 2008 your comments don't make sense.

I apologize. I presumed a level of awareness of your candidates comments on the issue. I did not want to post quotes, bc I did not feel like putting entire pages of text to avoid one liners...but...here goes. I am sure that Obama really mean something else (at least according to you).

I don't think my church is actually particularly controversial." [He] is like an old uncle who says things I don't always agree with

Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes

And your source and possible example of these quotes? After all context is important and has already been skewed once in this debate.

1) That the church was indeed racist. Taking the analogy you presented with Westboro clearly shows that we don't have enough information to make this claim.

Talk about presumtion. #1 I say there are more Wright than Phelps quotes.
#2, When did Westboro become the standard in which we judge cases to have adequate information. pffft, more rhetoric.

It was YOUR comparison, not mine. So I guess it became the standard about 1 page ago.

2) Obama heard the racist remarks

3) Obama's children were also subject to these remarks. In church the children are almost always in their own classrooms totally away from the adult congregation.

If a racist pos is at the top, it can only trickle down. It is not only about clips and sound bites. The very theology itself is racist, it is a pro black anti white message.

You keep wanting to label it guilt by association. Time and again I say that association would be enough if someone were to choose to officially "associate" themselves with the KKK. Why not when the hate is spewed from another source?

You have yet to show ANY evidence except a couple of 10 second you tube blurbs that the well is even poisoned.

You are relying on a few seconds of speeches taken months apart and out of context to establish that Wright was racist.

Then you take this "fact" of racism being taught on the church and conclude that every part of that church must be racist. . .

AND THEN you take the "fact" that the whole church is racist, and state that because Obama went there, that he must also be racist.

And you don't see a problem with you evidence or conclusions?

Who has had to retract several of his claims beginning with citing the totally wrong name and followed by incorrect quotes and assumptions?

I retracted 1 not several quote. It was my fault and I took responsibility for it. But it does not negate the point that I was trying to make.

My apologies. You never responded to ANY of the quotes so I assumed you were retracting all of them.

Please show us which quotes you would like to use to establish that Obama is racist, and then provide us the correct context so we can judge the quote with regard to the topic at hand.

Please rest assured . . . I have checked him out. Perhaps that is why I am voting for him.

Yeah....to bad you didn't see the truth.

I will now take micatala's warning to heart and take my leave. I should have known better than return.

You dislike being asked to actually provide evidence for your conclusions? You dislike having to have facts straight and have incorrect ones pointed out? You dislike people not agreeing with you by default without bothering to check out your sources first?