Do you fund evil?

Shamgar · Post by **Shamgar** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:37 am

Do you fund evil? Bush said if people stop funding terrorism terrorism will go away. Why do you fund abortion?

Click here:
http://img183.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img183& ... mon0by.jpg
if image is removed.

micatala · Post by **micatala** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:41 pm

Are you going to address the issues and questions raised or are you going to give up and drop even the pretext of debate in order to continue hurling insults?

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:57 pm

Shamgar wrote:

Quote:
How do you know you are one of the chosen few? Besides, I thought God desired all people to be saved, not just a few. How then could we say God is just and loving if he plays favorites?
How? Simple I don't act like the typical Christian. You can match my thoughts and actions straight to the Scriptures. . . if you understood them

All to be saved? Hardly! That is not what Christ preached, nor what Paul preached after Christ's death. burial and ressurection.

How on earth does not acting like the typical Christian prove that you're correct? Since when being atypical equals being correct? What kind of logic is that? Besides, nobody really acts like "the typical Christian" because the typical Christian is just a useful fiction, it doesn't exist!

I can certainly match your words and actions to a particular interpretation of the Scriptures, just like I can match Reverend Jesse Jackson's words and actions to a different interpretation of the same Scriptures. But does that prove anything? Of course, your one-size-fits-all line of defense is to say that we simply don't understand. Sorry, that just won't do.

So you're saying that Jesus never preached a message of universal love, never told us to love our neighbor (and even our enemies)? And of course, since your view is not the view of the majority, you must be right?
I'm afraid there are too many minority opinions and they can't all be right.

Paul preached that "all will be made alive in Christ" (Romans 5:18 ),
and that "all things in heaven and on earth...visible or invisible ...shall in the end be reconciled to God in Christ" (Colossians 1:16-20).

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:22 am

Shamgar wrote:
Quote from the athiest website:

“Certain criminally stupid elements of society like to pretend that a preemptive attack on the source of an assertion (or better yet, the entire group that leans that way) substitutes for having to listen, understand and form a cogent counter-argument. This is known as "poisoning the well." Only the truly mindless dullards will ever use it, but if and when they do, just point it out in catchy graphic form to the rest of the forum-goers. “

This is very confusing - why are you admitting to "poisoning the well" and then quote yet again from your fairy story to warn against it.

To constantly use ad hominems is seen by many as a sign of intellectual impoverishment.

Shamgar wrote: Either source says to avoid to responding to you.

I can only assume that you do not reply, and seek out reasons not to, because you are unable to answer without using biblical texts.

It saddens me to see those who refuse to even try to take self responsibility for the support of their beliefs.

BTW it is common courtesy when quoting from an another source to provide a URL for that source.

Shamgar · Post by **Shamgar** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:48 am

Must be in your "fiction" since it is clearly outlined in Scripture

Matt 7: 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I can certainly match your words and actions to a particular interpretation of the Scriptures, just like I can match Reverend Jesse Jackson's words and actions to a different interpretation of the same Scriptures. But does that prove anything? Of course, your one-size-fits-all line of defense is to say that we simply don't understand. Sorry, that just won't do.

So you're saying that Jesus never preached a message of universal love, never told us to love our neighbor (and even our enemies)? And of course, since your view is not the view of the majority, you must be right? I'm afraid there are too many minority opinions and they can't all be right.

Your "universal love" doesn't exist in Scriptures - another fairy tale.

Click here:
http://img183.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img183& ... ebible.jpg
if image is removed.

Paul preached that "all will be made alive in Christ" (Romans 5:18 ),
and that "all things in heaven and on earth...visible or invisible ...shall in the end be reconciled to God in Christ" (Colossians 1:16-20).

Hey what is the context of "all" since not "everyone" is saved. . . the tares are part of "everyone" according to your definition and we all know what their fate is don't we? Thanks for the "context free" enlightenment.

micatala · Post by **micatala** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:48 pm

Hmmm. Still not replying to the points made. Your citation from Matthew does not address Dilettante's point that there is no 'typical' CHristian, or that being atypical is not guarantee of being right.

You are also arguing with yourself, since no one has said anything about replacing the Bible with Plato. My arguments have been based on scripture, and you have simply refused to respond to them.

You are selectively quoting scripture and ignoring other passages and interpretations that have been offered which disagree with your view.

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:02 pm

OK Shamgar, explain these bits of scripture then:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 JOHN 4:8

No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
1 JOHN 4:12

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 JOHN 4:18

Fairy tale? I must have missed the writer's crossed fingers behind his back.

As for the fifth chapter of Romans, it is commonly accepted that its immediate context does not limit the meaning of the word "all" in any sense. You think otherwise, so the burden of proof is on you. Please tell us how the context limits the scope of that word, or take back what you said about a "context free" enlightment. Tsk, tsk...

Shamgar · Post by **Shamgar** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:03 am

Dilettante wrote:OK Shamgar, explain these bits of scripture then:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 JOHN 4:8
No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
1 JOHN 4:12
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 JOHN 4:18

What!!?? You forgot to bring along your "all" and "everyone" verses. . . Tsk, tsk.

As for the fifth chapter of Romans, it is commonly accepted that its immediate context does not limit the meaning of the word "all" in any sense. You think otherwise, so the burden of proof is on you. Please tell us how the context limits the scope of that word, or take back what you said about a "context free" enlightment. Tsk, tsk...

Tsk, tsk, you forgot to read "all" of Romans Chapter 9. It doesn't say "all" and "everyone".

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:47 am

Shamgar wrote: Matt 7: 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Methinks this speaks volumes of you Sham.

Verse 20 is particularly relevent - to date you have displayed none of what you claim to believe.

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:26 am

Shamgar, we were talking about the fifth chapter of Romans, not the ninth. Don't change chapters so fast. But for every exclusivist Bible verse you can find, there is a universalist one. I'm not making them up, see:

"Therefore just as one man's trespass led to the condemnation of all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all"(ROMANS 5:18 )

"For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all"(ROMANS 11:32)

"..for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" (1 CORINTHIANS 15:22)

What does "all" mean to you? Are you suggesting that in these symmetrical assertions the meaning of "all" changes in mid-verse?

You make plenty of bold claims, but you never fully back them up. Why is your interpretation better than mine? Because yours is a minority view?

Shamgar · Post by **Shamgar** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:01 pm

Dilettante wrote:Shamgar, we were talking about the fifth chapter of Romans, not the ninth. Don't change chapters so fast.

Well since you leave out the ninth chapter you have skewed the results to come out to your answer. . . which is incorrect. I do believe it is called taking things OUT OF CONTEXT.

con·text Audio pronunciation of "context" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kntkst)
n.

1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

[Middle English, composition, from Latin contextus, from past participle of contexere, to join together : com-, com- + texere, to weave; see teks- in Indo-European Roots.