Does this Pre-Jesus tablet disprove Xianity?

[daedalus 2.0]

Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

By ETHAN BRONNER
Published: July 6, 2008
JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world ... yt&emc=rss



Xians have always claimed the story of Jesus's resurrection was unique.

It seems to have existed BEFORE Jesus was born.

[Thought Criminal]

If anything I think this bolsters the Christian faith more than it tears it down.

Now you have proof of a resurrection if not THE resurrection of Jesus.

And His resurrection is still unique. He was without sin. He was the perfect lamb unlike other resurrections.

No, we have proof that this was an extant myth. Some of us don't automatically believe that stories are true.

TC

[Christianathlete]

I apologize I wrote that in a hurry. I meant if the tablet it true.

[Word_Swordsman]

Xians have always claimed the story of Jesus's resurrection was unique.

It seems to have existed BEFORE Jesus was born.

The Jews held the story about Jonah being a sign, one of the many typologies in the OT concerning the coming Messiah. Jesus declared to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 12:39-40 "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: [40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

If anything that tablet confirms a wondrous prophesied event was imminent.

The resurrection of Jesus was indeed unique in that no other man did that the way it went with Jesus.

This is what is known as 'retrofitting', something that the author of Matthew did a lot of. Jonah is not a messanic passage. However, Christians have retrofitted phrases that have nothing to do with the Messiah, and wrote TO those phrases as if they meant something. The author of the Gospel of Matthew did that quite often.Oh, and "Messianic Jews" are Christians.

In your unfounded opinion, that claim conveniently nested in the lack of your presentation of empirical evidence for a "retrofitting" claim, I find no valid argument. Prophecy before and upon fulfillment is one of the features that sets the Bible apart from all other religious writings. The prophetic announcements predated Jesus by many centuries, repeated in Hebrew writings, followed by then undisputed accomplishment of Jesus' resurrection. Serious disputes arose after all living witnesses were gone. How is it Matthew retrofitted anything about Jesus in spite of a small army of Jewish theologians wanting to accomplish a refutation the people around them would accept?

It appears to me you are simply in denial regardless of stated facts that stood many centuries without serious challenge. Given enough time George Washington's feats will be "proved" to be mythical fables just like the Jewish Holocaust is being regarded today by many skeptics even while witnesses, both victims and liberators, live.

In fact, the writers documenting Christ simply took the Hebrew prophecies literally as applicable to Jesus, noting the peculiarities of his fulfillments. Jesus has been denied so long by some Jews as to preclude the possibility of any Messiah arising to fit any prophecies of Messiah, the logistics of possibility long rendered unattainable without a complete restoration of Israel, the temple, and the full priesthood.

[Word_Swordsman]

If anything I think this bolsters the Christian faith more than it tears it down.

Now you have proof of a resurrection if not THE resurrection of Jesus.

And His resurrection is still unique. He was without sin. He was the perfect lamb unlike other resurrections.

No, we have proof that this was an extant myth. Some of us don't automatically believe that stories are true.

Proof? You mean you folks now hold proof destroying Christianity? Let's see it.

[Word_Swordsman]

This tablet supports Liberal Xian doctrine/theology, not fundi or conservative doctrine.

Yes, that's basically it.

Under liberal Christianity, the Bible is simply a collection of inspiring stories that may well have some roots in reality but are often allegorical, metaphorical or otherwise nonliteral.

"Liberal Christianity" is not biblical Christianity, but a modern reformed version of what the Bible clearly states. Those same Liberals have sanctioned what God said is an abomination to Him, making homosexuals into ministers. They are not at all similar to what the first Church stood for, but attempt to conform Christianity to modern societal values.

Evidence that a story element that was thought to be specific to the Jesus story actually existed before would naturally suggest that the Jesus story incorportated this element.

Then you would assume General Petraeus' ideas about how to deal with Iraq were not predictive, but the military simply incorporated his directives into success reports? I think some folks here have no idea what prophecy is about, nor can comprehend excellent planning buy a high power.

In indirect response to another remark, let me point out that liberal Christians do not necessarily maintain that the gospels were written by witnesses. If you write a story a century later, you have to fill in the details with whatever you have available, and you don't need to worry about long-dead participants second-guessing you.TC

Jesus apparently died a few decades before the gospels were written while most direct witnesses were still alive to confirm or deny claims in those letters so well received and adored by the many churches. Plentiful witnesses were available to the writers. However, the writings were by inspiration, not reported to have been supplied following years of interviews of witnesses. Had we only had claim to writings according to affidavits of witnesses you might have a point by saying witnesses were hand picked to a certain agenda. However, the writings stood against a huge number of living witnesses, and there is no serious challenge from them concerning the content of the writings.

[Word_Swordsman]

Do you ever read what scholars say about the Gospels? Only die hard dogmatists deny that the gospels were Judaized in the oral tradition before they were written down. The synoptic gospels, excluding GJohn, are considered to be propaganda and not a true historical narrative. Paul himself draws from the OT to explain the crucifixion. A lot of dogmatists also point to Jesus fulfilling OT prophecy.
Craig

Present one of those "scholar" statements with a reference to their source material, like title of their book, and exact quote, please. I'd be happy to evaluate such statements using only the Bible, and perhaps looking at your selection from the source in context of what the author really said. You will find most if not all skeptic "scholars" are but "wannabe" scholars rejected by their peers in their own time, some found out in later generations, failing to fit their doctrines to what the Bible says, even allowing very liberal "interpretation" of the Bible.

[Goat]

Xians have always claimed the story of Jesus's resurrection was unique.

It seems to have existed BEFORE Jesus was born.

The Jews held the story about Jonah being a sign, one of the many typologies in the OT concerning the coming Messiah. Jesus declared to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 12:39-40 "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: [40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

If anything that tablet confirms a wondrous prophesied event was imminent.

The resurrection of Jesus was indeed unique in that no other man did that the way it went with Jesus.

This is what is known as 'retrofitting', something that the author of Matthew did a lot of. Jonah is not a messanic passage. However, Christians have retrofitted phrases that have nothing to do with the Messiah, and wrote TO those phrases as if they meant something. The author of the Gospel of Matthew did that quite often.Oh, and "Messianic Jews" are Christians.

In your unfounded opinion, that claim conveniently nested in the lack of your presentation of empirical evidence for a "retrofitting" claim, I find no valid argument. Prophecy before and upon fulfillment is one of the features that sets the Bible apart from all other religious writings. The prophetic announcements predated Jesus by many centuries, repeated in Hebrew writings, followed by then undisputed accomplishment of Jesus' resurrection. Serious disputes arose after all living witnesses were gone. How is it Matthew retrofitted anything about Jesus in spite of a small army of Jewish theologians wanting to accomplish a refutation the people around them would accept?

It appears to me you are simply in denial regardless of stated facts that stood many centuries without serious challenge. Given enough time George Washington's feats will be "proved" to be mythical fables just like the Jewish Holocaust is being regarded today by many skeptics even while witnesses, both victims and liberators, live.

In fact, the writers documenting Christ simply took the Hebrew prophecies literally as applicable to Jesus, noting the peculiarities of his fulfillments. Jesus has been denied so long by some Jews as to preclude the possibility of any Messiah arising to fit any prophecies of Messiah, the logistics of possibility long rendered unattainable without a complete restoration of Israel, the temple, and the full priesthood.

No, my opinion is quite founded in the theology of the Holy scriptures,and in the CONTEXT of the passages that were distorted by the writers of the Gospels.
You do know what 'CONTEXT' is, don't you? If you read Jonah in CONTEXT, it is not a prophecy. Nor, will you find any document older than the gospels that point to that passage to be a prophecy.. messanic or otherwise. Some of the Gospel stories are in the form of a Midrash, which is not literal, and would have been understood by the Jewish community of the time. However, the Gentile converts to Christianity and the more modern Christians take the form of the Midrash , make it literal, and turn it into a 'prophecy'.

[Thought Criminal]

I apologize I wrote that in a hurry. I meant if the tablet it true.

I can't imagine why we would think it was true.

TC

[Christianathlete]

I apologize I wrote that in a hurry. I meant if the tablet it true.

I can't imagine why we would think it was true.

TC

Well.
What do we have that says it is false?

[Thought Criminal]

I apologize I wrote that in a hurry. I meant if the tablet it true.

I can't imagine why we would think it was true.

TC

Well.
What do we have that says it is false?

Common sense. It's an extraordinary claim lacking even ordinary evidence. To put it charitably, it's a rumor of a miracle, so we should politely dismiss it.

You seem very eager to believe. Not to believe the truth, which would be a good thing, but simply to accept things as true if they fit your preconceptions. A resurrection of a Jew around two thousand years ago perfectly fits those preconceptions.

I would suggest that you approach this critically and ask whether an objective, rational observer would be persuaded by the evidence. If they wouldn't, neither should you.

TC