Does belief in your God require a sacrifice?

[daedalus 2.0]

McCulloch was debating with a typical Xian and mentioned that Jesus required a sacrifice to live the life He prescribed.

Oddly, Xian's often use Pascal's Wager to justify their belief. (So do Muslims and Hindu's, btw)

The thing is, if Jesus required a sacrifice, and people use Pascals Wager, then they believe they are sacrificing something to believe in something they can only explain as "faith".

If they are sacrificing something, then they are losing something in this life for something undefined and unverifiable later. Now, I remember being Xian and thinking "Oh, no, I'm not losing, I'm gaining something in this life, too! The companionship of Jesus!"

Of course, this was religious bs, but moreso, it wasn't sacrificing, then, was it!

It was a calculated effort to gain something in this life and "the next". So what was I sacrificing?


OK, so the others will say: you aren't required to sacrifice, Jesus did it for you....

Well, not true. As a Xian (or other religionist) you are required to live a certain way: no pork, no pre-marital sex, no sin, no lusting, no killing, etc. Of course, we all make sacrifices (personally, I refrain from bad logic as my "faith" prescribes, oh, and I don't kill because my "religion" thinks it really uncool.).

I make the sacrifices because I know it will be better for me and society. A Religionist, presumably, does it to find favor: they do it selfishly.

So, what is the sacrifice? And if none, why prescribe a way to live in a religion in the first place?

[InTheFlesh]

I don't follow your version of the bible.
My bible is not about works.
Faith without works is dead.
Faith is a person (Christ) and faith is backed up with works.
By faith we are saved, not of ourselves.
His work saved us, not us keeping his commandments.
Do you have any idea what the old testament is about?
Under the law, were there any righteous?
So by works, no man can reach God.
You need to believe in what Jesus did whole heartily,
to see the kingdom of God.

[daedalus 2.0]

I don't follow your version of the bible.
My bible is not about works.
Faith without works is dead.
Faith is a person (Christ) and faith is backed up with works.
By faith we are saved, not of ourselves.
His work saved us, not us keeping his commandments.
Do you have any idea what the old testament is about?
Under the law, were there any righteous?
So by works, no man can reach God.
You need to believe in what Jesus did whole heartily,
to see the kingdom of God.

So, God speaks and you prefer to think its all about believing in Him like he's Santa, and not doing ONE damn thing he kindly suggests?

If you truly believed he was God, you would see the wisdom in even the most minor of His suggestions, but you prefer to trust YOUR interpretation of His Word and your Ego.

And, then, you try to apologize for it to an atheist.


You know that if your Faith was true, your Works would follow. Don't try to bullshit me.

[InTheFlesh]

If you don't believe in his word,
I don't expect you to believe in mine.

[OnceConvinced]

Under the law, were there any righteous?

No, that's why a sacrifice was necessary. It's why God sent his son as the ultimate sacrifice.

You know that if your Faith was true, your Works would follow.

Absolutely. Works come because of faith. If they don't come, then faith is meaningless. But doesn't InTheFlesh admit that? I may be getting lost here. lol. Actually I'm not sure, he/she seems to be suggesting that Jesus did the work for us.

[daedalus 2.0]

If you don't believe in his word,
I don't expect you to believe in mine.

Huh? I don't believe either of yours!

However, YOU are saying YOU believe in Jesus as God. Have you done what he says?

Be honest, God is watching.

JESUS' COMMANDS
"The Top Forty"

1. Obey my commandments - Jn 14:15, 21, 23; II Jn 6

2. Love God and others - Jn 15:12, Mt 22:37-40

3. Go and preach to all the world - Mk 16:15, Mt 28:19

4. Don't delay, do it now - Jn 4:35, 9:4, 12:35

5. Take nothing for your journey - Lk 9:3, 10:4

6. Don't work for food - Jn 6:27, Mt 6:24-33, Lk 12:29

7. Work for me & my kingdom - Mt 11:28-30, Lk 12:31

8. Sell all that you own - Lk 11:41, 12:33, 18:22

9. Don't store things that you're not using - Mt 6:19

10. Don't charge for what you do - Mt 10:8

11. Give to God what belongs to God - Lk 20:25, Mt 22:21

12. Don't waste time on argumentative people - Mt 7:6

13. Invite the poor to eat with you - Lk 14:12-14

14. Give to anyone who asks - Lk 6:30, Mk 6:37

15. If you pray, fast, or give, do it secretly - Mt 6:1-11

16. Don't use vain repetitions when praying - Mt 6:7

17. Don't advertise healings - Mt 9:30, 12:16

18. Take the lowest position in meetings - Lk 14:8-10

19. Don't be called Father, Mister, etc. - Mt 23:9-10

20. Beware of hypocrisy and greed - Lk 12:1, 15

21. Take up your cross and follow me - Mk 8:34

22. Live in me, and live in my love - Jn 15:4, 9

23. Eat whatever people give you - Lk 10:7

24. Rejoice when you are persecuted - Lk 6:23

25. Move to another city if persecuted - Mt 10:23

26. Love, bless, and pray for your enemies - Lk 6:27-29

27. Do to others as you'd have them do to you - Lk 6:31

28. Be agreeable with your adversaries - Lk 12:58, Mt 5:25

29. Forgive others - Mk 11:25-26, Mt 6:12, Lk 6:37

30. Cut off your hand if it offends you - Mk 9:43

31. Don't be afraid of people - Lk 12:4-5

32. Let the dead bury the dead - Mt 8:22

33. Rebuke a brother if he sins - Lk 17:3, Mt 18:15-17

34. When you judge, do it fairly - Jn 7:24

35. You must be born again- Jn 3:3, Lk 18:17, Mk 10:15

36. Don't make promises for any reason - Mt 5:34-37

37. Don't sell things in God's house - Jn 2:16

38. Don't forbid others to preach Christ - Lk 9:50

39. Teach all nations to obey these rules - Mt 28:20

40. When you have done all these things, say, "We have only done that which was our duty to do." - Lk 17:10

I don't believe you have done these things, or should do all these things.

It is only your God that says so.



See you in Hell, I guess!

[InTheFlesh]

Actually,
the sacrifice was needed prior to the law.

"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together"

[daedalus 2.0]

Seriously, InTheFlesh, give me $1000.

14. Give to anyone who asks - Lk 6:30, Mk 6:37

[Cathar1950]

I don't follow your version of the bible.
My bible is not about works.
Faith without works is dead.
Faith is a person (Christ) and faith is backed up with works.
By faith we are saved, not of ourselves.
His work saved us, not us keeping his commandments.
Do you have any idea what the old testament is about?
Under the law, were there any righteous?
So by works, no man can reach God.
You need to believe in what Jesus did whole heartily,
to see the kingdom of God.

Regardless of the version some of the Bible is about works and it is a Pauline interpretation that confuses the issues.
Pistis or faith is more like faithfulness or even trust then a belief.
Abraham, according to the scriptures, obeyed and it was counted as being right.
Paul writing to Gentile converts with an anti-Law agenda didn’t bother with the whole story.
It seems many Christians take advantage of the passage that says He came to call the sinners rather then the righteous as the righteous were already righteous.
It was to call the sinner to righteousness and not that the sinner got a free ride.
The Law was a covenant that the community had with Yahweh and not a curse someone was under. Repentance and restitution were enough as long as you were faithful or trusted God. It is Paul and others that misread the Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus was faithful and not a substitution so sinners can believe without being part of the faithfulness of Jesus.

[OnceConvinced]

Actually,
the sacrifice was needed prior to the law.

"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together"

But hold on Moses laws talk about sacrifices and even laws regarding sacrifices. So sacrifice was needed when the laws were given.

[InTheFlesh]

Yes