McCulloch was debating with a typical Xian and mentioned that Jesus required a sacrifice to live the life He prescribed.
Oddly, Xian's often use Pascal's Wager to justify their belief. (So do Muslims and Hindu's, btw)
The thing is, if Jesus required a sacrifice, and people use Pascals Wager, then they believe they are sacrificing something to believe in something they can only explain as "faith".
If they are sacrificing something, then they are losing something in this life for something undefined and unverifiable later. Now, I remember being Xian and thinking "Oh, no, I'm not losing, I'm gaining something in this life, too! The companionship of Jesus!"
Of course, this was religious bs, but moreso, it wasn't sacrificing, then, was it!
It was a calculated effort to gain something in this life and "the next". So what was I sacrificing?
OK, so the others will say: you aren't required to sacrifice, Jesus did it for you....
Well, not true. As a Xian (or other religionist) you are required to live a certain way: no pork, no pre-marital sex, no sin, no lusting, no killing, etc. Of course, we all make sacrifices (personally, I refrain from bad logic as my "faith" prescribes, oh, and I don't kill because my "religion" thinks it really uncool.).
I make the sacrifices because I know it will be better for me and society. A Religionist, presumably, does it to find favor: they do it selfishly.
So, what is the sacrifice? And if none, why prescribe a way to live in a religion in the first place?
Does belief in your God require a sacrifice?
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daedalus 2.0
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Does belief in your God require a sacrifice?
Post #1Imagine the people who believe ... and not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible.... It is these ignorant people�who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us...I.Asimov
Post #2
So basically you don't do it for yourself, you do it for society and if you happen to do it for yourself, its for the good of "yourself"?I make the sacrifices because I know it will be better for me and society. A Religionist, presumably, does it to find favor: they do it selfishly.
Why can't a Christian do it because its better for him or herself and for society, as well?
What exactly is the prohibiting factor? I certainly don't see a difference of your philosophy and that of the Christian rather only that its up front about "its" belief system and doctrine. Basically the execution is the same however the methods are different and most certainly for different reasons.
As a side note what exactly does the Christian lose by not experiencing
no pork, no pre-marital sex, no sin, no lusting, no killing, etc.?
Get back to me on these, cause I'd really like to know.
linkbolt
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daedalus 2.0
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Post #3
Interesting discussion, no?
Perhaps I am wrong to say I sacrifice anything. I was thinking about it and I really don't.
I don't do certain things because I don't want to do them. I don't steal, for example, because I consider it wrong - wrong for me and in a larger sense.
I suppose Xians have exactly the same explanation, they simply attribute it to a God, rather than a basic human ethic.
However, I still suggest that the Xian's end goal is to save their skin, as it were, just the same as the atheists. I guess its not a bad thing, just a common thing that doesn't need religion in the first place, since those ethics can be found without religion, or "Faith"
Perhaps I am wrong to say I sacrifice anything. I was thinking about it and I really don't.
I don't do certain things because I don't want to do them. I don't steal, for example, because I consider it wrong - wrong for me and in a larger sense.
I suppose Xians have exactly the same explanation, they simply attribute it to a God, rather than a basic human ethic.
However, I still suggest that the Xian's end goal is to save their skin, as it were, just the same as the atheists. I guess its not a bad thing, just a common thing that doesn't need religion in the first place, since those ethics can be found without religion, or "Faith"
Imagine the people who believe ... and not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible.... It is these ignorant people�who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us...I.Asimov
Post #4
I think 2.0 has raised a good point here.
It is claimed that Jesus is sent to sacrifice his life for our sins.
Well I have some news for Christians. This does not make any sense.
Firstly, if, as you claim Jesus is in fact also God, then sacrificing being alive isn’t exactly a step down. In fact id say becoming human in the first place was the sacrifice! It makes no sense.
Secondly, who are they trying to impress?
Ok imagine you are God, you can do anything....why not just forgive people especially as you are so merciful and living, why is it needed to cause a living person torturous pain to forgive! Again it makes no sense.
As I’m sure has come up before, the problem of original sin is here again, why forgive this original sin if it was 'metaphorical'. You either believe in the bible literally or you don't, you can’t have it both ways. It makes no sense.
Also Jesus knew he was going to die and be reborn according to your story, so what did he sacrifice, all he did was have a lot of pain inflicted on him by Romans. Wow an achievement!!!
Also the problem of Judas, he has been victimised for so long now, even the name it seems cannot be given due to the stigma. However without Judas, Jesus would never have made his heroic 'sacrifice'. he knew what was going to happen before becoming human, if anything we should celebrate Judas. It makes no sense.
My final point is this.....in the (actually very interesting) way 2.0 has pointed out, a sacrifice is not a sacrifice if you get something back, it is an offering, currency. This does suggest God, the almighty and all merciful God, requires suffering in exchange for entry into heaven etc (or whatever you are paying for). If what you say is true, and you are right then why do you even like God?
Weirdly, I do enjoy both pork and pre-marital sex, if God disagrees with my choice he can tell me himself, and when he does hell have a lot of questions to answer.
It is claimed that Jesus is sent to sacrifice his life for our sins.
Well I have some news for Christians. This does not make any sense.
Firstly, if, as you claim Jesus is in fact also God, then sacrificing being alive isn’t exactly a step down. In fact id say becoming human in the first place was the sacrifice! It makes no sense.
Secondly, who are they trying to impress?
Ok imagine you are God, you can do anything....why not just forgive people especially as you are so merciful and living, why is it needed to cause a living person torturous pain to forgive! Again it makes no sense.
As I’m sure has come up before, the problem of original sin is here again, why forgive this original sin if it was 'metaphorical'. You either believe in the bible literally or you don't, you can’t have it both ways. It makes no sense.
Also Jesus knew he was going to die and be reborn according to your story, so what did he sacrifice, all he did was have a lot of pain inflicted on him by Romans. Wow an achievement!!!
Also the problem of Judas, he has been victimised for so long now, even the name it seems cannot be given due to the stigma. However without Judas, Jesus would never have made his heroic 'sacrifice'. he knew what was going to happen before becoming human, if anything we should celebrate Judas. It makes no sense.
My final point is this.....in the (actually very interesting) way 2.0 has pointed out, a sacrifice is not a sacrifice if you get something back, it is an offering, currency. This does suggest God, the almighty and all merciful God, requires suffering in exchange for entry into heaven etc (or whatever you are paying for). If what you say is true, and you are right then why do you even like God?
Well as I’ve not killed anyone, don’t intend on doing so, and think anyone who kills perfectly innocent people (i.e. God(does that make me more moral than God of the bible? I think so)) is morally corrupt, then id have to say you are missing out on.....pork...mmmm pork.....pre-marital sex...ooooohhh yeah...and a little bit of lusting, nice.As a side note what exactly does the Christian lose by not experiencing?
no pork, no pre-marital sex, no sin, no lusting, no killing, etc.?
Weirdly, I do enjoy both pork and pre-marital sex, if God disagrees with my choice he can tell me himself, and when he does hell have a lot of questions to answer.
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daedalus 2.0
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Post #5
I also want to point out a little nugget about sacrifice.
If I have $5 to my name and give someone $4, it is a big sacrifice. While I may or may not get something out of it, except knowing I helped someone.
If I have $1M dollars and give someone $4, it is much less of a sacrifice.
That is. To give something that you have in limited or finite amount is a sacrifice. To give something that you have in abundance is not.
So,sacrifice:
A soldier in Iraq is making an infinitely larger sacrifice than the Xian story of Jesus.
Jesus, according to the religion, is abundent in Life. He, according to the religion, is Life itself; is the eternal and immortal source of Life. (Even faith and others attest to this).
To give something - either to give another person life (which Jesus did very rarely, the stingy bastard), or to shed your body (have your body die, but not Spirit), is a mockery of sacrifice.
Did Jesus die in the sense that he no longer was alive, anywhere in the Universe and beyond? Did he absolutely cease to exist? Because if not, then he didn't die - as the Bible points out - that it was just his body.
If he did cease to exist, then how can a Xian explain that God can cease to exist when the religion clearly points out that God is eternal.
So, Xians, your Sacrificed Savior, if real, has pulled a fast one on you. He didn't die spiritually, and he only die in the flexh which is of no concern - and certainly no sacrifice. And since he was the David Koresh of his day, he was probably wanting to form a death cult and sacrifice himself in the fine tradition of Samson and suicide bombers after him.
Just remember, it is no sacrifice if you have infinite abundance of the thing you are giving away - or, if you never gave it away in the first place.
If I have $5 to my name and give someone $4, it is a big sacrifice. While I may or may not get something out of it, except knowing I helped someone.
If I have $1M dollars and give someone $4, it is much less of a sacrifice.
That is. To give something that you have in limited or finite amount is a sacrifice. To give something that you have in abundance is not.
So,sacrifice:
A soldier in Iraq is making an infinitely larger sacrifice than the Xian story of Jesus.
Jesus, according to the religion, is abundent in Life. He, according to the religion, is Life itself; is the eternal and immortal source of Life. (Even faith and others attest to this).
To give something - either to give another person life (which Jesus did very rarely, the stingy bastard), or to shed your body (have your body die, but not Spirit), is a mockery of sacrifice.
Did Jesus die in the sense that he no longer was alive, anywhere in the Universe and beyond? Did he absolutely cease to exist? Because if not, then he didn't die - as the Bible points out - that it was just his body.
If he did cease to exist, then how can a Xian explain that God can cease to exist when the religion clearly points out that God is eternal.
So, Xians, your Sacrificed Savior, if real, has pulled a fast one on you. He didn't die spiritually, and he only die in the flexh which is of no concern - and certainly no sacrifice. And since he was the David Koresh of his day, he was probably wanting to form a death cult and sacrifice himself in the fine tradition of Samson and suicide bombers after him.
Just remember, it is no sacrifice if you have infinite abundance of the thing you are giving away - or, if you never gave it away in the first place.
Imagine the people who believe ... and not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible.... It is these ignorant people�who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us...I.Asimov
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daedalus 2.0
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Post #7
I was born to a Xian and atheist. I was raised in primarily Xian countries and cultures, I agree with some of the ideas that Jesus (aka Christ) espoused.Quixotic wrote:@2.0
Your avatar suggests you are a Christian and an Atheist?
However, I don't believe in a God, don't believe Jesus was anything more then a David Koresh-type and certainly NOT divine in any sense.
I also do it to confuse and entertain. Sometimes people see your groups and respond as they feel they should rather then what was written. Maybe it gives pause to some people?
Imagine the people who believe ... and not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible.... It is these ignorant people�who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us...I.Asimov
Post #8
It did indeed raise my eyebrow.
I too am more of a cultural Christian, went to a Christian school and born to cultural Christians.
This is the case with many people in England.
As you, I also agree some of what Christ said, however I have failed to find anything I agree with which isn’t found elsewhere or was even original at the time.
If I was to consider myself a Christian, it would be unfair to all the other influences (esp as Christ (if he said what he is reported to in the bible) is such a small one) to do so, id have to include them also, Christ would be way down the list.
Interesting though, thanks for disclosing.
I too am more of a cultural Christian, went to a Christian school and born to cultural Christians.
This is the case with many people in England.
As you, I also agree some of what Christ said, however I have failed to find anything I agree with which isn’t found elsewhere or was even original at the time.
If I was to consider myself a Christian, it would be unfair to all the other influences (esp as Christ (if he said what he is reported to in the bible) is such a small one) to do so, id have to include them also, Christ would be way down the list.
Interesting though, thanks for disclosing.
Post #9
You certianly don't have to have "religion" to believe in a right and a wrong. That is true however it couldn't hurt or make you an more deficient of a human being. I'm sure that there are others who most certainly can and will contest this comment it doesn't matter its true. Much the same way that being an atheist or agnostic may not make me any less deficient of a human being.However, I still suggest that the Xian's end goal is to save their skin, as it were, just the same as the atheists. I guess its not a bad thing, just a common thing that doesn't need religion in the first place, since those ethics can be found without religion, or "Faith"
Lastly, ethics are derived from a source, you can claim society, culture or religion however they don't just stem from within ourselves. Your ethics are based upon a world view.
You posed the question "Does belief in your God require a sacrifice?"
Yes, however in my opinion its not a very costly one. Your list of things sacrificed are very minimal, indeed. BTW Christians can eat pork and pretty much anything that they want, which is edible.
linkbolt
Post #10
Are you done ranting yet, because you've certainly portrayed what your view of God is and thats great but, I thought that we where discussing "Does belief in your God require a sacrifice?" and not the "Your God doesn't make sense thread?"Quixotic wrote:I think 2.0 has raised a good point here.
It is claimed that Jesus is sent to sacrifice his life for our sins.
Well I have some news for Christians. This does not make any sense.
Firstly, if, as you claim Jesus is in fact also God, then sacrificing being alive isn’t exactly a step down. In fact id say becoming human in the first place was the sacrifice! It makes no sense.
Secondly, who are they trying to impress?
Ok imagine you are God, you can do anything....why not just forgive people especially as you are so merciful and living, why is it needed to cause a living person torturous pain to forgive! Again it makes no sense.
As I’m sure has come up before, the problem of original sin is here again, why forgive this original sin if it was 'metaphorical'. You either believe in the bible literally or you don't, you can’t have it both ways. It makes no sense.
Also Jesus knew he was going to die and be reborn according to your story, so what did he sacrifice, all he did was have a lot of pain inflicted on him by Romans. Wow an achievement!!!
Also the problem of Judas, he has been victimised for so long now, even the name it seems cannot be given due to the stigma. However without Judas, Jesus would never have made his heroic 'sacrifice'. he knew what was going to happen before becoming human, if anything we should celebrate Judas. It makes no sense.
My final point is this.....in the (actually very interesting) way 2.0 has pointed out, a sacrifice is not a sacrifice if you get something back, it is an offering, currency. This does suggest God, the almighty and all merciful God, requires suffering in exchange for entry into heaven etc (or whatever you are paying for). If what you say is true, and you are right then why do you even like God?
Well as I’ve not killed anyone, don’t intend on doing so, and think anyone who kills perfectly innocent people (i.e. God(does that make me more moral than God of the bible? I think so)) is morally corrupt, then id have to say you are missing out on.....pork...mmmm pork.....pre-marital sex...ooooohhh yeah...and a little bit of lusting, nice.As a side note what exactly does the Christian lose by not experiencing?
no pork, no pre-marital sex, no sin, no lusting, no killing, etc.?
Weirdly, I do enjoy both pork and pre-marital sex, if God disagrees with my choice he can tell me himself, and when he does hell have a lot of questions to answer.
linkbolt
