Trinity

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Confused
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Trinity

Post #1

Post by Confused »

For the purpose of this thread, I am looking for validation amongst the 3 most popular Creeds that are used to support the notion of the Trinity:

The Nicene Creed:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... icene.html
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Here, we see how the 3 entities are distinctly separate, with separate roles, etc.. They all share the same "substance" but are they really the same? I share the same substance as my mother and father, am I not my own entity, but a trinity? Actually, since there are 9 kids in my family, it wouldn't be a trinity but, yeah, don't recall what nine would but, but that.

I see no explicit mention here and I think one would have to stretch things far to see an implicit one as well.


The Apostles Creed:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... creed.html
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

See absolutely nothing here to even imply it.



And the Athanasian Creed:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... asian.html
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty;
And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord;
so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is greater, or less than another.
But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.
So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God.
One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty;
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
And shall give account of their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

Now we reach the bread and butter, one in which there is mention of the trinity, explicitly. So is this the creed that should supersede all others? Is this the only valid one here? Or does the fact that it came so much later and was a variation of the original, make it really invalid?
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #91

Post by Goat »

joer wrote:
chimera wrote:They were commanded to "replenish and subdue the earth and its creatures" but domination over other men was not included. God retained executive authority as symbolised by the tree of knowledge of good and bad. That could not relate to sex, as God had told them to have children as a couple which he had brought together. So self-rule by human opinions was the issue, and pushed by Satan who wanted Jesus to worship Satan who held all the kingdoms of earth._ Matt. 4.8,9.
Jesus did what Adam should have done, and said to serve God.
I understand what you are saying in this post loud and clear. And you are exactly right. Jesus did do what Adam should have done. When presented with anything from Satan defer to God for the "RIGHT" direction.

Satan fooled Adam and Eve but not Jesus. And therein lies our Salvation. because jesus taught us to ALWAYS choose God.

Jesus was So Prefect in His Representation of and His Presentation of God to Humankind, we can now defer to God in any or all of three persons, God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

So the new acronym of the youth of today WWJD makes prefect sense.

Thanks Chimera! :D I really enjoyed that. Peace be with you and all on this site. :D
Now, without playing 'we will take this sentence out of context from one book and apply it to genesis', show me where the snake was Satan. The Snake was not Satan.. the snake was a snake, and genesis is a 'just so' teaching story.

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Re: Re post 89

Post #92

Post by Cathar1950 »

piglet17 wrote:Love for swinish individuals consists of not throwing pearls before them (anymore). Both for their sake and the thrower's
I will try not to waste anymore words on you and it seems you have already depleted your supply.
I see you missed the point.

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Re: Re post 89

Post #93

Post by joer »

piglet17 wrote:Love for swinish individuals consists of not throwing pearls before them (anymore). Both for their sake and the thrower's
LOL :D That was a good one Piglet. Have a good day today. :D

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Thank you.

Post #94

Post by piglet17 »

It's true

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Re: Thank you.

Post #95

Post by Cathar1950 »

piglet17 wrote:It's true
What is true about it?
It seems you misunderstand the use of names.
It seems you are out of pearls and you should have been collecting them as they were tossing them at you.
If the name fits?

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Post #96

Post by otseng »

Moderator intervention:

The posts here are starting to get personal. Please avoid comments directed at posters. Simply debate the points without making references to people personally. Thanks.

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Post #97

Post by Cathar1950 »

otseng wrote:Moderator intervention:

The posts here are starting to get personal. Please avoid comments directed at posters. Simply debate the points without making references to people personally. Thanks.
I am sorry as it is my fault, well at least half my fault. So I am half sorry.
I didn't think I was "really" being personal, Just being a wise guy.
Where were we?

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