"Salvation" from what?
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Beto
"Salvation" from what?
Post #1I was wondering what Christians think being "parted from "God" or "God's Word" really is. Could they fear something they can't even imagine? Is it like being an atheist? What does it "feel" like? I'm only addressing those who "naturally" assume we won't have a body to burn in a lake of fire, since that's too easy to imagine.
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ken1burton
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Post #2
Beto.
Bodies do not burn in the lake of Fire. God’s word is like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29. When the prophecies are fulfilled, they are immersed in God’s word, Same as being Baptized with fire. Death and hell were fulfilled, so they are tossed in, False Prophet is fulfilled, Tosses in, Those not found written in the Lamb’s book of life (yet unconceived) are covered by God’s word, so they are tossed in. (They will be written in when they are conceived)
Overcomers of the Second Church which is Smyrna. (Second step to God which is to BELIEVE) are not hurt by the Second death, the Second death is to be cast into the Lake of fire, It will not hurt you to be immersed in God’s word if you already believe WILL IT?
Those who know God do not wish to be separated from God, God does not wish to be separated from any of His Children, So He sent Jesus to be sure He would not be. Jesus took all sins, Past, present and Future and paid for them in full, He rendered to man His righteousness, So all are Home Free.
All the dead rose with Christ, Hell was a place of sleep till Jesus died for sin, then where they had to WAIT ON THE LORD till the third day. All are in Heaven now, Hell ceased to exist. Now we go from life on earth, to life in Heaven at once.
If you do not want to enter (Gates are broken open) Those out of hell would like to talk to you of the love and mercy of God. It will bother you. Those out of hell, seen as locust in Revelation have the power to hurt some people for five months, Showing you God’s love will get to you.
And if you are wondering about that Devil fellow?
Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Are you sure, you could handle TRUTH?
Ken
Bodies do not burn in the lake of Fire. God’s word is like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29. When the prophecies are fulfilled, they are immersed in God’s word, Same as being Baptized with fire. Death and hell were fulfilled, so they are tossed in, False Prophet is fulfilled, Tosses in, Those not found written in the Lamb’s book of life (yet unconceived) are covered by God’s word, so they are tossed in. (They will be written in when they are conceived)
Overcomers of the Second Church which is Smyrna. (Second step to God which is to BELIEVE) are not hurt by the Second death, the Second death is to be cast into the Lake of fire, It will not hurt you to be immersed in God’s word if you already believe WILL IT?
Those who know God do not wish to be separated from God, God does not wish to be separated from any of His Children, So He sent Jesus to be sure He would not be. Jesus took all sins, Past, present and Future and paid for them in full, He rendered to man His righteousness, So all are Home Free.
All the dead rose with Christ, Hell was a place of sleep till Jesus died for sin, then where they had to WAIT ON THE LORD till the third day. All are in Heaven now, Hell ceased to exist. Now we go from life on earth, to life in Heaven at once.
If you do not want to enter (Gates are broken open) Those out of hell would like to talk to you of the love and mercy of God. It will bother you. Those out of hell, seen as locust in Revelation have the power to hurt some people for five months, Showing you God’s love will get to you.
And if you are wondering about that Devil fellow?
Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Are you sure, you could handle TRUTH?
Ken
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ken1burton
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Post #5
This entire "Salvation" issue has always seemed a bit of a contrived farce from a sociological perspective. What is God "saving" you from? Well, you are being "saved" from God's punishment. Okay, so why is God punishing people? Because they are sinful. Why are they sinful? Because they rebelled against God.
Wait a minute. Now the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-creator God is punishing people because he screwed-up creation? This is a bit psychotic.
But when you apply Occam's Razor it all makes perfect sense. Perhaps an ancient culture just made all this rubbish up by taking bits from here and there to build a contrived farce of cultural mythology. We have evidence of the cultural evolution of the Abrahamic religions, so why go any further than the know aspect of mythology. All other ancient mythologies are dismissed because they are obviously ridiculous. Why hold on to this specific Hebrew one?
It is easy enough to bolster a claim like "The Word of God" because no evidence is possible. Faith is required.
Once you toss out logic and reason, it becomes a circus.
Wait a minute. Now the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-creator God is punishing people because he screwed-up creation? This is a bit psychotic.
But when you apply Occam's Razor it all makes perfect sense. Perhaps an ancient culture just made all this rubbish up by taking bits from here and there to build a contrived farce of cultural mythology. We have evidence of the cultural evolution of the Abrahamic religions, so why go any further than the know aspect of mythology. All other ancient mythologies are dismissed because they are obviously ridiculous. Why hold on to this specific Hebrew one?
It is easy enough to bolster a claim like "The Word of God" because no evidence is possible. Faith is required.
Once you toss out logic and reason, it becomes a circus.
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ken1burton
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Post #6
Rathpig.
No problem except for the detailed Prophecies in existence before Jesus came at Bethlehem, and all fulfilled the day of the Cross, Hundreds of Prophecies, almost 1,000 Chapters of Scripture covered. Nice trick, Only a God could have pulled off.
Ken
No problem except for the detailed Prophecies in existence before Jesus came at Bethlehem, and all fulfilled the day of the Cross, Hundreds of Prophecies, almost 1,000 Chapters of Scripture covered. Nice trick, Only a God could have pulled off.
Ken
Post #7
I sorry Ken, but that is all just rot: post hoc ergo propter hoc rot. "Prophecy" is such an ancient con game that it surprises me so many relatively educated people still don't understand it. I will hit the high points.ken1burton wrote:Rathpig.
No problem except for the detailed Prophecies in existence before Jesus came at Bethlehem, and all fulfilled the day of the Cross, Hundreds of Prophecies, almost 1,000 Chapters of Scripture covered. Nice trick, Only a God could have pulled off.
Ken
You can't show a single prophecy that clearly predicts a specific event on a specific day. Prophecy doesn't work like in this manner. What you can show are vague statements that were interpreted after-the-fact to correlate with foreknowledge.
I made a prediction that the Patriots would be victorious over the Jets. (Sorry, American Football) I even added the caveat that it would be a "close game". Well, 38-35 and I am a prophet. No sir. I used a good bit of previous knowledge to determine a plausible outcome and made the statement in vague terms. If I was sitting in the middle of an ancient world war-zone during a invasion by the Legions of Rome. I bet I could predict, for instance, the destruction of Jerusalem. Such is a no brainer.
This brings up the most salient point in understanding prophesy, there is no sanction for being wrong. The Bible is filled with prophecy that didn't happen. What about the whole Jesus comes back in the disciples' lifetime thing? Oops!
We could go tit-for-tat for days derailing this thread about "interpretations" and "revealed scripture" and on, and bloody on. As I said above, to bring this back to the OP, the entire "salvation" aspect of Christianity is just a contrived farce. "Prophesy" is a contrived farce. Religion at it's core is a contrived farce, and it doesn't pain me in the least to say anyone simple enough to believe such without even slight evidence is delusional.
Now please show me that verse of scripture where in plain language a declarative statement is made that predicts a specific event on a specific date that isn't a standard assumption that any dung-monger in the local village could have foreseen. No post hoc interpretive shenanigans or "this really means" quibbling will suffice. Show me a plain, specific, dated, notarized prophesy.
Also note that the book called "The Bible" is of such questionable authenticity and of an utterly contrived nature itself that were I not a friendly sort I would demand correlation with an actual valuable document. Proving theist gibberish with "The Bible" is much like me proving Spiderman because I know Stan Lee wrote these books .......... but I am the gentlemenly sort. I just don't suffer superstition and mythology very far.
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Easyrider
Post #8
Nuts. Here's just one of numerous examples of fulfilled prophecy:Rathpig wrote:The Bible is filled with prophecy that didn't happen.
http://brittgillette.com/WordPress/?p=28
The "oops" is your mistake based on a superficial understanding of the doctrine.Rathpig wrote: What about the whole Jesus comes back in the disciples' lifetime thing? Oops!
Did Jesus teach an Imminent Return?
http://www.aboundingjoy.com/Bible%20stu ... inency.htm
Post #9
The prophesy issue is a derail, but rest assured that if anyone desires to discuss the fallacy that is Biblical prophesy, I am more than willing. Please note that the recreation of Israel is not a fulfilled prophecy. It is an untoward burden on the U.S. taxpayer. "God" didn't rebuild Israel. A wealthy Imperial lobby rebuilt Israel.
Please ken1burton or Easyrider start a thread on prophesy and I will be there straight away.
I notice that neither of you challenged by dismissal of the salvation ruse.
(I can't help but add: “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” - Matthew 24:34
Jesus not only "wept". He failed.)
Please ken1burton or Easyrider start a thread on prophesy and I will be there straight away.
I notice that neither of you challenged by dismissal of the salvation ruse.
(I can't help but add: “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” - Matthew 24:34
Jesus not only "wept". He failed.)
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ken1burton
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Post #10
Rathpig
When speaking of the Scriptures, Even Salvation, prophecy comes up. We are talking of things which cannot be seen, You can not see if a person is saved or not, We have no way to prove there is Eternal life given, from here on earth, or that Heaven exists, Or God exists in some life form.
Then it also takes in what a person is willing to believe anyway. Our means of witness to the life of Christ, The events of the Day of the Cross, The existence of the Books of the Old Testament. Can all be claimed as insufficient evidence.
We do not have the physical videotapes, Etc, which we could use today. Most of the original books have ceased to exist as far as now, Who knows what might get dug up somewhere.
So what would you accept as evidence anyway, Would you hold the Jewish Holy Scriptures (their copies of the copies of the copies) are intact, and existed before the time of Jesus at Bethlehem? Or is this just, no evidence of a Jesus?
Would you hold that the Gospels have some merit to be believed, to be searched against what the Prophecies say? Or is it all rejected before any search is really made?
Now the Jews are still waiting for a Messiah. And they are still claiming Jesus was not the one who fit the Prophecies for the Messiah. I am sure they would not change their copies to fit Jesus, Christianity might alter a little, Just to make it more understandable, of course.
That is why the Jewish Nation was blinded from seeing Jesus is the Messiah, They are a witness the Old Testament books are intact, existed before Jesus came at Bethlehem, and have not been changed to fit Jesus, it is the Old Testament which is testimony for Jesus.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
The Disciples never knew all the prophecies were for the day of the Cross, So they messed up a lot anyway. Kind of hard to do things written in prophecy when you do not know the correct time to do them. And it is also hard when you do not know all the things needed to be done. Many things God did not tell them, Many things, God did not tell Jesus either.
The Story of the ass, the Colt the Foal of an ass. They took it for Palm Sunday, But prophecies are for the day of the Cross.
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Genesis 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Job 11:12 For vain man would be wise, though man be born like a wild ass's colt.
The day of the Cross, the Vine which is Jesus, is bound to the Birth of mankind to God. The Body of Christ is born the day of the Cross with mankind in that Body. Born like a wild ass’s colt. Body seen born the day of the Cross in Psalms 2:6/7 given the Heathen in 2:8. Jesus took away sin as all futures sins BELONGED to Jesus at Golgotha, So now it is Immanuel or God with Us.
That is Salvation, For having taken away all sin, or everything which would have separated us from God. And rendered to man His righteousness. So we have Eternal life with God. Salvation from Death, Salvation from punishment or hell, Salvation from Separation from God and that also includes all the others you love, who will be there also, Or shortly there after if they lived longer then you on earth.
Part of that Salvation is from every hearing what you did wrong from God, It is never mentioned. It is washed away. Other then you remember.
You might just want to be like a fish, Etc, and die and that be the end of it. I guess that is like no person is an Island, (Disciples fled like them though) You might want that, Your Mother and others that love you (assuming) might not like the hurt of not seeing you again, so your request is not honored, We all go to Heaven at earthly death, Like it or not.
There are plenty of people who came out of hell more then willing to speak to you in the gates of the love and mercy of God. We are all part of the Family of God, and like it or not, we are stuck in that Family, and it is really a very nice Family to be in, and there is really no choice anyway.
And the Object is not to Discuss Bible Prophecy, when you already call it a Fallacy. But to make an honest search. To see if it might not be one.
All those things did come to pass, In fact it was fulfilled the day of the Cross. End times was the day of the Cross also. As was the Beginning.
Ken
When speaking of the Scriptures, Even Salvation, prophecy comes up. We are talking of things which cannot be seen, You can not see if a person is saved or not, We have no way to prove there is Eternal life given, from here on earth, or that Heaven exists, Or God exists in some life form.
Then it also takes in what a person is willing to believe anyway. Our means of witness to the life of Christ, The events of the Day of the Cross, The existence of the Books of the Old Testament. Can all be claimed as insufficient evidence.
We do not have the physical videotapes, Etc, which we could use today. Most of the original books have ceased to exist as far as now, Who knows what might get dug up somewhere.
So what would you accept as evidence anyway, Would you hold the Jewish Holy Scriptures (their copies of the copies of the copies) are intact, and existed before the time of Jesus at Bethlehem? Or is this just, no evidence of a Jesus?
Would you hold that the Gospels have some merit to be believed, to be searched against what the Prophecies say? Or is it all rejected before any search is really made?
Now the Jews are still waiting for a Messiah. And they are still claiming Jesus was not the one who fit the Prophecies for the Messiah. I am sure they would not change their copies to fit Jesus, Christianity might alter a little, Just to make it more understandable, of course.
That is why the Jewish Nation was blinded from seeing Jesus is the Messiah, They are a witness the Old Testament books are intact, existed before Jesus came at Bethlehem, and have not been changed to fit Jesus, it is the Old Testament which is testimony for Jesus.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
The Disciples never knew all the prophecies were for the day of the Cross, So they messed up a lot anyway. Kind of hard to do things written in prophecy when you do not know the correct time to do them. And it is also hard when you do not know all the things needed to be done. Many things God did not tell them, Many things, God did not tell Jesus either.
The Story of the ass, the Colt the Foal of an ass. They took it for Palm Sunday, But prophecies are for the day of the Cross.
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Genesis 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Job 11:12 For vain man would be wise, though man be born like a wild ass's colt.
The day of the Cross, the Vine which is Jesus, is bound to the Birth of mankind to God. The Body of Christ is born the day of the Cross with mankind in that Body. Born like a wild ass’s colt. Body seen born the day of the Cross in Psalms 2:6/7 given the Heathen in 2:8. Jesus took away sin as all futures sins BELONGED to Jesus at Golgotha, So now it is Immanuel or God with Us.
That is Salvation, For having taken away all sin, or everything which would have separated us from God. And rendered to man His righteousness. So we have Eternal life with God. Salvation from Death, Salvation from punishment or hell, Salvation from Separation from God and that also includes all the others you love, who will be there also, Or shortly there after if they lived longer then you on earth.
Part of that Salvation is from every hearing what you did wrong from God, It is never mentioned. It is washed away. Other then you remember.
You might just want to be like a fish, Etc, and die and that be the end of it. I guess that is like no person is an Island, (Disciples fled like them though) You might want that, Your Mother and others that love you (assuming) might not like the hurt of not seeing you again, so your request is not honored, We all go to Heaven at earthly death, Like it or not.
There are plenty of people who came out of hell more then willing to speak to you in the gates of the love and mercy of God. We are all part of the Family of God, and like it or not, we are stuck in that Family, and it is really a very nice Family to be in, and there is really no choice anyway.
And the Object is not to Discuss Bible Prophecy, when you already call it a Fallacy. But to make an honest search. To see if it might not be one.
All those things did come to pass, In fact it was fulfilled the day of the Cross. End times was the day of the Cross also. As was the Beginning.
Ken
