Free will?

Ami · Post by **Ami** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:33 am

Does the Bible say that we all have free will or not? Churches vary with their beliefs in predestination and the free will of mankind and as so far the passages in the Bible lean towards the belief in the former, yet other Christians argue that mankind has free will.

I am not interested, at least in this argument, on what beliefs outside the Bible are on free will. Evidence of free will or lack of outside the Bible would make the thread interesting and may be jotted down for later reference.

It's also not a debate about how moral one sees God if he gives free will or doesn't, although I'm betting that's what this thread would start arguing about. At least give it a page or two to decide what the Bible says itself. Please.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:27 am

The Bible gives no clear indication about this question. That is why the churches have not been able to speak in unison on it.

Salt Agent · Post by **Salt Agent** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:40 pm

Hello Ami,

Your question is a very good one. I appreciate the fact that you are more interested in seeing what God's word has to say rather than philosophical rhetoric.

McCulloch wrote "The Bible gives no clear indication about this question. That is why the churches have not been able to speak in unison on it."

Actually the Bible is very clear on this subject, as evidenced by the verses below. My honorable colleague is only correct in the part that there is a lot of discussion about it. The reason people disagree on issues in the Bible is almost never because of lack of clarity, or that the Bible is silent on it. It usually is a combination of not using solid principles for interpreting it, and taking verses out of context and sometimes they just don't like the instruction, a case in point is mode of Baptism. People have differences of opinion, but they have more to do with tradition than just taking God's word as it stands.
God's word is meant to be understood by regular people, and thus was written in the language of common, regular people --Koine or Common Greek.

Rather than a lengthy commentary, I think this is a good place to start. The first two entries are verbatim from the New Open Bible, which was used and endorsed by Billy Graham. It is not a version, but a specific study Bible.

Free moral agency of man—ability to choose

Resulted in sin Gen. 2:16, 17
Recognized by God Gen. 4:6–10; John 7:17
Appealed to Is. 1:18–20; Jer. 36:3, 7

Thomas Nelson, Inc., Nelson’s topical Bible index [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995.

Freewill offerings

Obligatory Deut. 12:6
Must be perfect Lev. 22:17–25
Eaten in tabernacle by the priests Lev. 7:16, 17
Firstfruits Prov. 3:9
According to one’s ability Deut. 16:17
Willing mind 2 Cor. 8:10–12
Cheerful heart 2 Cor. 9:6, 7

CHOICE
Loving choice, Ruth 1:16.
Israel’s wrong choice, 1 Samuel 12:18–19 (gnb).
Man’s choice versus God’s, 1 Samuel 16:1–13.
Three choices, 2 Samuel 24:11–17.
Second best, 1 Kings 2:13–25.
Given choice, 1 Kings 3:5.
Discerning choice, 1 Kings 3:9.
Choosing between two options, 1 Kings 18:21.
God’s will, freedom of choice, Ezra 7:18.
Choose heart’s direction, Job 11:13 (nrsv).
Choosing to follow truth, Psalm 119:30 (Berk.).
Ken Anderson; illustrated by John Hayes, Where to find it in the Bible [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1996 by Ken Anderson.

As for this one, there were so many verses, that i just took a chunk right from the middle so you can see all the verses and the contexts that deal with it.
One of the best points for showing the Bible's clear teaching on this -Free Will of Man is that God even gave all the angels in Heaven Free will to choose whether they would follow him or not. Lucifer wanted to be God, and rebelled and when he fell, one third of all the angels chose to go with him.

Another great illustration of Mankind's Free Will is the Parable of the Wedding Feast which illustrates the kingdom of heaven. Luke 14:16-24.

Hope This helps.
Take Care.

If at first, the Bible seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense, or it becomes nonsense.

Salt Agent · Post by **Salt Agent** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:40 pm

Hello Ami,

Your question is a very good one. I appreciate the fact that you are more interested in seeing what God's word has to say rather than philosophical rhetoric.

McCulloch wrote "The Bible gives no clear indication about this question. That is why the churches have not been able to speak in unison on it."

Actually the Bible is very clear on this subject, as evidenced by the verses below. My honorable colleague is only correct in the part that there is a lot of discussion about it. The reason people disagree on issues in the Bible is almost never because of lack of clarity, or that the Bible is silent on it. It usually is a combination of not using solid principles for interpreting it, and taking verses out of context and sometimes they just don't like the instruction, a case in point is mode of Baptism. People have differences of opinion, but they have more to do with tradition than just taking God's word as it stands.
God's word is meant to be understood by regular people, and thus was written in the language of common, regular people --Koine or Common Greek.

Rather than a lengthy commentary, I think this is a good place to start. The first two entries are verbatim from the New Open Bible, which was used and endorsed by Billy Graham. It is not a version, but a specific study Bible.

Free moral agency of man—ability to choose

Resulted in sin Gen. 2:16, 17
Recognized by God Gen. 4:6–10; John 7:17
Appealed to Is. 1:18–20; Jer. 36:3, 7

Thomas Nelson, Inc., Nelson’s topical Bible index [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995.

Freewill offerings

Obligatory Deut. 12:6
Must be perfect Lev. 22:17–25
Eaten in tabernacle by the priests Lev. 7:16, 17
Firstfruits Prov. 3:9
According to one’s ability Deut. 16:17
Willing mind 2 Cor. 8:10–12
Cheerful heart 2 Cor. 9:6, 7

CHOICE
Loving choice, Ruth 1:16.
Israel’s wrong choice, 1 Samuel 12:18–19 (gnb).
Man’s choice versus God’s, 1 Samuel 16:1–13.
Three choices, 2 Samuel 24:11–17.
Second best, 1 Kings 2:13–25.
Given choice, 1 Kings 3:5.
Discerning choice, 1 Kings 3:9.
Choosing between two options, 1 Kings 18:21.
God’s will, freedom of choice, Ezra 7:18.
Choose heart’s direction, Job 11:13 (nrsv).
Choosing to follow truth, Psalm 119:30 (Berk.).
Ken Anderson; illustrated by John Hayes, Where to find it in the Bible [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1996 by Ken Anderson.

As for this one, there were so many verses, that i just took a chunk right from the middle so you can see all the verses and the contexts that deal with it.
One of the best points for showing the Bible's clear teaching on this -Free Will of Man is that God even gave all the angels in Heaven Free will to choose whether they would follow him or not. Lucifer wanted to be God, and rebelled and when he fell, one third of all the angels chose to go with him.

Another great illustration of Mankind's Free Will is the Parable of the Wedding Feast which illustrates the kingdom of heaven. Luke 14:16-24.

Hope This helps.
Take Care.

If at first, the Bible seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense, or it becomes nonsense.

Beto · Post by **Beto** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:09 pm

Without a common definition of "free will" (which is most likely impossible) between Christians and atheists (or non-Christians) the discussion on whether or not the Bible attributes "free will" to Man, will be as pointless as arguing about Yahweh's "love" for Man, for example. Perhaps we should try to agree on a definition that pleases everyone, though I'm fairly sure that can't happen.

Openmind · Post by **Openmind** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:16 pm

Without a common definition of "free will" (which is most likely impossible) between Christians and atheists (or non-Christians) the discussion on whether or not the Bible attributes "free will" to Man, will be as pointless as arguing about Yahweh's "love" for Man, for example. Perhaps we should try to agree on a definition that pleases everyone, though I'm fairly sure that can't happen.

I have a definition:

Can our subjective conscious experience (the immaterial self-awareness) affect the physical world (via neurons)?

Beto · Post by **Beto** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:44 am

Openmind wrote: I have a definition:

Can our subjective conscious experience (the immaterial self-awareness) affect the physical world (via neurons)?

Well, if you "reduce" conscious awareness to biochemical processes I would say no. Of course, proponents of quantum consciousness theory may disagree.

Ami · Post by **Ami** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:51 pm

Without a common definition of "free will" (which is most likely impossible) between Christians and atheists (or non-Christians) the discussion on whether or not the Bible attributes "free will" to Man, will be as pointless as arguing about Yahweh's "love" for Man, for example. Perhaps we should try to agree on a definition that pleases everyone, though I'm fairly sure that can't happen.

I have thought about this, and figured that to know what free-will is, it would be best to consider what a lack of free will is. Eg. Daniel 1: 9 "God caused the official to show favour and sympathy to Daniel." seems a bit dubious, but Daniel 4:33 "Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzer was fullfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like cattle." is probably a better example of someone without control of their own will.

Easyrider · Post by **Easyrider** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:34 pm

Ami wrote:
Without a common definition of "free will" (which is most likely impossible) between Christians and atheists (or non-Christians) the discussion on whether or not the Bible attributes "free will" to Man, will be as pointless as arguing about Yahweh's "love" for Man, for example. Perhaps we should try to agree on a definition that pleases everyone, though I'm fairly sure that can't happen.
I have thought about this, and figured that to know what free-will is, it would be best to consider what a lack of free will is. Eg. Daniel 1: 9 "God caused the official to show favour and sympathy to Daniel." seems a bit dubious, but Daniel 4:33 "Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzer was fullfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like cattle." is probably a better example of someone without control of their own will.

A small judgment of God. King Neb recovered in time, though.

Right now, though, you have free will to either receive or reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior for the remission of your sins. Agreed?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:13 pm

A few definitions:

the partial freedom of the agent, in acts of conscious choice, from the determining compulsion of heredity, environment and circumstance.
Freedom of self determination and action independent of external causes.
in contrast with determinism, the doctrine of free will asserts that man is able to make choices according to his own will.
the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies

The Bible clearly shows that humans make choices. It makes no statement about whether those choices are made completely independent of heredity, environment, circumstance and other causes and agents external to self.