Freedom from Religion

[McCulloch]

Many democracies have included protection of religion in their constitutions. We enjoy freedom of religion. There are some who claim that there can be freedom of religion without freedom from religion. I don't see how that is possible.

Questions for debate:

1. Does freedom of religion imply freedom from religion?
2. Is freedom from religion a good idea?
3. Is freedom from religion guaranteed by the constitutional law of your country?

[Cephus]

Have you truly studied evolution? Well not studying and then teling your kids something as though you did that would be abuse!

Yes actually, I have advanced degrees and have studied evolutionary theory in great detail. As usual, you're completely wrong.

Did you know you absolutly cannot add to the genetic code? This a major blow to evolution this alone destroys evolution.

It does? That's funny, we do it all the time in the lab.

How about the second and first law of thermo dynamics. This absolutly destroys evolution.

The only thing it destroys is your credibility. You haven't got a clue what thermodynamics says.

How about absolutly no evidence what soever for A bio genesis? This absolutly destroys evolution!

If you had any credibility left, you've lost it now. Evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with abiogenesis, it only deals with existing life, evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life.

But you'd know that if you weren't so ignorant.

How about the fact that if the univerese was billions of years old the galaxies would have spun out long ago? this absolutly destroys evolution!

Please explain how biological evolution has anything whatsoever to do with astrophysics. Oh wait, it doesn't, silly me.

I could go on for days with this stuff.

Oh by all means, go ahead, you're just making yourself look foolish. Please, show us the wonders that the religion brings as your brain dribbles out your ears. It's great entertainment.

[Rathpig]

.... It is absolutly accurate that the Founders and framers were strongly Christian and layed down the principles of this nation on the very principles of Christianity.

What you and the propagandists you quote fail to realize is that the very reason the United States was established as a secular nation was that they valued their personal freedom of religion and freedom from the religions of others.

Jefferson said, "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
(Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82)

I am not going to delve too deeply into this topic because it is obvious that you are merely reciting the opinions handed to you by others who have a vast ulterior motive in promoting the false "Christian Nation" meme. Yes, many U.S. Founders were both religiously and culturally Christian. Many were religiously Deists. But they all agreed that government must be separated, Jefferson used the analogy of a "wall", from religion. This includes the absence of religion. This includes freedom from religion.

What the modern theocrats desire is a cultural hegemony that no longer exists. The U.S. population is neither culturally or religiously "Christian" regardless of the lip-service given to the idea. The U.S. of today, much like the U.S. of the 1790's worships Pascal's Wager rather than Christ.

You have yet to refute the statement of the Treaty of Tripoli, but I understand that this is when taken in context anathema to the modern theocrats. As I have stated, the U.S. was created as a purposefully secular nation. The Constitution makes not a single mention of "God" or any deity. Once the various Amendments were incorporated under the Fourteenth, then this Federal Secularism became de jure State secularism. You are correct that until incorporation the States were under no obligation to follow the Constitution unless specifically instructed. An example of this is that the Second Amendment still does not apply to the States.

However, under incorporation of the Fourteenth, the First Amendment does apply to the States. The entire U.S. is a secular construct. We the People are free of and from religion.

I understand you have a science problem to address before we return to the study of history, I await your answer on that post with some excitement.

[Easyrider]

But they all agreed that government must be separated, Jefferson used the analogy of a "wall", from religion. This includes the absence of religion. This includes freedom from religion.

This doesn't include wiping religion from the public and government sectors. The Constitution says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Congress! That didn't mean the individual states were prohibited from exercising their own laws regarding the subject.

Two days after writing his "Danbury 'wall of separation'" letter to the Baptists, Jefferson attended religious services in the Hall of the House of Representatives. And religious services were held in government buildings up to and shortly after the Civil War. Obviously, their understanding of the issue was much different than today's ACLU crowd.

Second, regarding the Treaty of Tripoli: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."
--From Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli,

please note that:

Article 11 merely says that the government of America is not founded on the Christian religion, as in a theocracy. This does not mean that the majority of Americans were not of the Christian faith, and it certainly doesn't address the numerous Judeo-Christian principles upon which our country was founded. In those respects, it falls short of accurately describing America.

[Truth Prevails]

Have you truly studied evolution? Well not studying and then teling your kids something as though you did that would be abuse!

Yes actually, I have advanced degrees and have studied evolutionary theory in great detail. As usual, you're completely wrong.

Did you know you absolutly cannot add to the genetic code? This a major blow to evolution this alone destroys evolution.

It does? That's funny, we do it all the time in the lab.

How about the second and first law of thermo dynamics. This absolutly destroys evolution.

The only thing it destroys is your credibility. You haven't got a clue what thermodynamics says.

How about absolutly no evidence what soever for A bio genesis? This absolutly destroys evolution!

If you had any credibility left, you've lost it now. Evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with abiogenesis, it only deals with existing life, evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life.

But you'd know that if you weren't so ignorant.

How about the fact that if the univerese was billions of years old the galaxies would have spun out long ago? this absolutly destroys evolution!

Please explain how biological evolution has anything whatsoever to do with astrophysics. Oh wait, it doesn't, silly me.

I could go on for days with this stuff.

Oh by all means, go ahead, you're just making yourself look foolish. Please, show us the wonders that the religion brings as your brain dribbles out your ears. It's great entertainment.

You are just like all the rest of evolutionist I debate no evidence and story telling contrivances!

First of all you do not add to the genetic code through natural means.

And Second of all you have no clue what I would say concerning the laws of thermodynamics yet you say I know nothing. Thats not very scientific!

Conservation of energy---major blow to evolution

Law of entropy or second law---major blow to evolution

no evidence nor has there ever been evidence for A bio genesis---major blow to evolution and please do not quote the fraudulent work of Stanley Miller a fraudulent liar as other evolutionists have tried before.

The horrendous mathmatical impossibilities to the randon fromation of amino acids to just form one protein which still wouldnt start life along with the astronomical ridiculous mathmatical impossibilties of mutations to occur let ALONE beneficialy and enough or the fact that this doesnt nor has ever nor is therer any evidence to the claims of it ever occuring.mutations cause a loss of information or disease and please do not give the ridiculous sicklecell malaria circular reasoning story. Thats like saying Oh I lost my right arm protecting my left arm. in other words DUMB!!!! ---major blow to evolution


Natural selection is only within its genes of its kind and nothing more. this is absolute irrefutable fact!!!!---major blow to evolution


Irreducible complexity----major blow to evolution


Also if evolution were so undeniably true there would be no debate, this is why evolutionists fight the whole of the evidence because if it was all presented there would be no debate, this is why evolutionists fight opposing sides. So I say what are they afraid of? you have to ask ones self this!

lets keep going here and keep the evolutionists busy trying to come up with more circular reasonig fairytales with NO evidence scientific or otherwise!

Complexity and stability of the cosmos----major blow to evolution

geologic column? it is an assumption not a scientific evidential contrivance. The actual eveidence shows it to be nothing more than realy bad science because when you make something up with no REAL evidence to support ones claims which the geologic column does, thats flat out BAD science!---major blow to evolution


carbon dating doesnt work beyond a few thousand years even the inventor himself said so and agreed also the countless inaccuracies along with potassium argon dating, just plain junk science! ----major blow to evolution

Polystrate fossils---major blow to evolution

thousands of dino fossils found with tissue still in them ----major blow to evolution


All suppossed vestigials of past now known not vestigials---major blow to evolution

also the absurd mathmatical impossibilties to all of the variables to happen randomly is so laughable its sickening for anyone to claim they know science and beleive such a fairytale as evolution. the mathmatical ridiculous of it is astronomical, even for the smallest of things.---this is a major blow to evolution.

population growths counted backwards---for approx 6 billion people---comes to around the same timeline approx. of the bible around 6 to 8 thousand years old also the same timeline for all known evidential civilisations archaeologicaly known today. WOW!!!! what a cincidence!---major blow to evolution


I could go on for days and the evolutionists will just make up circular reasoning fairytales to rebuttal it its funny! Peace!

[McCulloch]

Without getting into too much detail about the constitution of one particular country, is it really possible to have freedom of religion without freedom from religion? If religious rites and rituals are sponsored by the government of the day, does that not impede the freedom of those who do not subscribe to the particular practice being promoted by the state?

[Goat]

Have you truly studied evolution? Well not studying and then teling your kids something as though you did that would be abuse!

Yes actually, I have advanced degrees and have studied evolutionary theory in great detail. As usual, you're completely wrong.

Did you know you absolutly cannot add to the genetic code? This a major blow to evolution this alone destroys evolution.

It does? That's funny, we do it all the time in the lab.

How about the second and first law of thermo dynamics. This absolutly destroys evolution.

The only thing it destroys is your credibility. You haven't got a clue what thermodynamics says.

How about absolutly no evidence what soever for A bio genesis? This absolutly destroys evolution!

If you had any credibility left, you've lost it now. Evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with abiogenesis, it only deals with existing life, evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life.

But you'd know that if you weren't so ignorant.

How about the fact that if the univerese was billions of years old the galaxies would have spun out long ago? this absolutly destroys evolution!

Please explain how biological evolution has anything whatsoever to do with astrophysics. Oh wait, it doesn't, silly me.

I could go on for days with this stuff.

Oh by all means, go ahead, you're just making yourself look foolish. Please, show us the wonders that the religion brings as your brain dribbles out your ears. It's great entertainment.

You are just like all the rest of evolutionist I debate no evidence and story telling contrivances!

First of all you do not add to the genetic code through natural means.

And Second of all you have no clue what I would say concerning the laws of thermodynamics yet you say I know nothing. Thats not very scientific!

Conservation of energy---major blow to evolution

Law of entropy or second law---major blow to evolution

no evidence nor has there ever been evidence for A bio genesis---major blow to evolution and please do not quote the fraudulent work of Stanley Miller a fraudulent liar as other evolutionists have tried before.

The horrendous mathmatical impossibilities to the randon fromation of amino acids to just form one protein which still wouldnt start life along with the astronomical ridiculous mathmatical impossibilties of mutations to occur let ALONE beneficialy and enough or the fact that this doesnt nor has ever nor is therer any evidence to the claims of it ever occuring.mutations cause a loss of information or disease and please do not give the ridiculous sicklecell malaria circular reasoning story. Thats like saying Oh I lost my right arm protecting my left arm. in other words DUMB!!!! ---major blow to evolution


Natural selection is only within its genes of its kind and nothing more. this is absolute irrefutable fact!!!!---major blow to evolution


Irreducible complexity----major blow to evolution


Also if evolution were so undeniably true there would be no debate, this is why evolutionists fight the whole of the evidence because if it was all presented there would be no debate, this is why evolutionists fight opposing sides. So I say what are they afraid of? you have to ask ones self this!

lets keep going here and keep the evolutionists busy trying to come up with more circular reasonig fairytales with NO evidence scientific or otherwise!

Complexity and stability of the cosmos----major blow to evolution

geologic column? it is an assumption not a scientific evidential contrivance. The actual eveidence shows it to be nothing more than realy bad science because when you make something up with no REAL evidence to support ones claims which the geologic column does, thats flat out BAD science!---major blow to evolution


carbon dating doesnt work beyond a few thousand years even the inventor himself said so and agreed also the countless inaccuracies along with potassium argon dating, just plain junk science! ----major blow to evolution

Polystrate fossils---major blow to evolution

thousands of dino fossils found with tissue still in them ----major blow to evolution


All suppossed vestigials of past now known not vestigials---major blow to evolution

also the absurd mathmatical impossibilties to all of the variables to happen randomly is so laughable its sickening for anyone to claim they know science and beleive such a fairytale as evolution. the mathmatical ridiculous of it is astronomical, even for the smallest of things.---this is a major blow to evolution.

population growths counted backwards---for approx 6 billion people---comes to around the same timeline approx. of the bible around 6 to 8 thousand years old also the same timeline for all known evidential civilisations archaeologicaly known today. WOW!!!! what a cincidence!---major blow to evolution


I could go on for days and the evolutionists will just make up circular reasoning fairytales to rebuttal it its funny! Peace!

It has been shown in COURT that ID is not scientific at all,and is creationism all dolled up. It has been shown in COURT that your sources lied. This is a COURT
document that discusses many of those issues.

http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller ... er_342.pdf

Now, this shows that your claims have been backed up in COURT to be misrepresenting facts based on religious beliefs. You have successfully demonstrated good solid reasons for the necessity of freedom FROM religion
in our science classes. I will make a prediction is that you will not go over to the
science and religion section and make a coherent defense for any one of those
issues.

[Truth Prevails]

Without getting into too much detail about the constitution of one particular country, is it really possible to have freedom of religion without freedom from religion? If religious rites and rituals are sponsored by the government of the day, does that not impede the freedom of those who do not subscribe to the particular practice being promoted by the state?

Freedom of religion and freedom from religion do NOT go hand in hand!


If I were a bycycle maker and I made bycycles a certain way, I have that right but I give you the right to modify the bycycle if you wish---this is your freedom of religion---but you do not have the right to tell the bycycle maker that he has to or not to make it his way since he is the founder, maker and producer of the bike. So you dont have a freedom from my style of bycycle but you do have the freedom to do what you wish with the bycycle you were given. i.e. freedom of religion but not a freedom from religion.

Freedom of religion expresses ---The free excercise thereof while freedom from religion would be a violation by prohibiting that free excercise. Freedom of, religion, constitutional--- freedom from, not constitutional.

Tax dollars for supporting the founding principles of America whats wrong with it? The real beef would be tax dollars that fight against christianity and americas founding principles i.e. Abortion funded by tax dollars.

[Truth Prevails]

Have you truly studied evolution? Well not studying and then teling your kids something as though you did that would be abuse!

Yes actually, I have advanced degrees and have studied evolutionary theory in great detail. As usual, you're completely wrong.

Did you know you absolutly cannot add to the genetic code? This a major blow to evolution this alone destroys evolution.

It does? That's funny, we do it all the time in the lab.

How about the second and first law of thermo dynamics. This absolutly destroys evolution.

The only thing it destroys is your credibility. You haven't got a clue what thermodynamics says.

How about absolutly no evidence what soever for A bio genesis? This absolutly destroys evolution!

If you had any credibility left, you've lost it now. Evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with abiogenesis, it only deals with existing life, evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life.

But you'd know that if you weren't so ignorant.

How about the fact that if the univerese was billions of years old the galaxies would have spun out long ago? this absolutly destroys evolution!

Please explain how biological evolution has anything whatsoever to do with astrophysics. Oh wait, it doesn't, silly me.

I could go on for days with this stuff.

Oh by all means, go ahead, you're just making yourself look foolish. Please, show us the wonders that the religion brings as your brain dribbles out your ears. It's great entertainment.

You are just like all the rest of evolutionist I debate no evidence and story telling contrivances!

First of all you do not add to the genetic code through natural means.

And Second of all you have no clue what I would say concerning the laws of thermodynamics yet you say I know nothing. Thats not very scientific!

Conservation of energy---major blow to evolution

Law of entropy or second law---major blow to evolution

no evidence nor has there ever been evidence for A bio genesis---major blow to evolution and please do not quote the fraudulent work of Stanley Miller a fraudulent liar as other evolutionists have tried before.

The horrendous mathmatical impossibilities to the randon fromation of amino acids to just form one protein which still wouldnt start life along with the astronomical ridiculous mathmatical impossibilties of mutations to occur let ALONE beneficialy and enough or the fact that this doesnt nor has ever nor is therer any evidence to the claims of it ever occuring.mutations cause a loss of information or disease and please do not give the ridiculous sicklecell malaria circular reasoning story. Thats like saying Oh I lost my right arm protecting my left arm. in other words DUMB!!!! ---major blow to evolution


Natural selection is only within its genes of its kind and nothing more. this is absolute irrefutable fact!!!!---major blow to evolution


Irreducible complexity----major blow to evolution


Also if evolution were so undeniably true there would be no debate, this is why evolutionists fight the whole of the evidence because if it was all presented there would be no debate, this is why evolutionists fight opposing sides. So I say what are they afraid of? you have to ask ones self this!

lets keep going here and keep the evolutionists busy trying to come up with more circular reasonig fairytales with NO evidence scientific or otherwise!

Complexity and stability of the cosmos----major blow to evolution

geologic column? it is an assumption not a scientific evidential contrivance. The actual eveidence shows it to be nothing more than realy bad science because when you make something up with no REAL evidence to support ones claims which the geologic column does, thats flat out BAD science!---major blow to evolution


carbon dating doesnt work beyond a few thousand years even the inventor himself said so and agreed also the countless inaccuracies along with potassium argon dating, just plain junk science! ----major blow to evolution

Polystrate fossils---major blow to evolution

thousands of dino fossils found with tissue still in them ----major blow to evolution


All suppossed vestigials of past now known not vestigials---major blow to evolution

also the absurd mathmatical impossibilties to all of the variables to happen randomly is so laughable its sickening for anyone to claim they know science and beleive such a fairytale as evolution. the mathmatical ridiculous of it is astronomical, even for the smallest of things.---this is a major blow to evolution.

population growths counted backwards---for approx 6 billion people---comes to around the same timeline approx. of the bible around 6 to 8 thousand years old also the same timeline for all known evidential civilisations archaeologicaly known today. WOW!!!! what a cincidence!---major blow to evolution


I could go on for days and the evolutionists will just make up circular reasoning fairytales to rebuttal it its funny! Peace!

It has been shown in COURT that ID is not scientific at all,and is creationism all dolled up. It has been shown in COURT that your sources lied. This is a COURT
document that discusses many of those issues.

http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller ... er_342.pdf

Now, this shows that your claims have been backed up in COURT to be misrepresenting facts based on religious beliefs. You have successfully demonstrated good solid reasons for the necessity of freedom FROM religion
in our science classes. I will make a prediction is that you will not go over to the
science and religion section and make a coherent defense for any one of those
issues.

Soprry thatys a ridiculous rebuttal friend everyone knows that Judges in court orders can be biased. A judge isnt gonna make a scientific judgement on such a matter in some court room thats plain nonsense. Sory but you have to bring more than that ! Cause thats nothing! A judge can be nothing more than a politician with an agenda. it just depends on the judges credibility and i know there is no judge that sorted through the science to make his claim in some court room, thats just plain ridiculous! Peace!

[Goat]

Soprry thatys a ridiculous rebuttal friend everyone knows that Judges in court orders can be biased. A judge isnt gonna make a scientific judgement on such a matter in some court room thats plain nonsense. Sory but you have to bring more than that ! Cause thats nothing! A judge can be nothing more than a politician with an agenda. it just depends on the judges credibility and i know there is no judge that sorted through the science to make his claim in some court room, thats just plain ridiculous! Peace!

Considering Judge Jones was a very conservative Judge, appointed by a republican President who rejects evolution, I would say that your reaction, while very predictable,is also very unjustified.

Let's see if you go to the science section and defend your claims.

[Confused]

Have you truly studied evolution? Well not studying and then teling your kids something as though you did that would be abuse!

Yes actually, I have advanced degrees and have studied evolutionary theory in great detail. As usual, you're completely wrong.

Did you know you absolutly cannot add to the genetic code? This a major blow to evolution this alone destroys evolution.

It does? That's funny, we do it all the time in the lab.

How about the second and first law of thermo dynamics. This absolutly destroys evolution.

The only thing it destroys is your credibility. You haven't got a clue what thermodynamics says.

How about absolutly no evidence what soever for A bio genesis? This absolutly destroys evolution!

If you had any credibility left, you've lost it now. Evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with abiogenesis, it only deals with existing life, evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life.

But you'd know that if you weren't so ignorant.

How about the fact that if the univerese was billions of years old the galaxies would have spun out long ago? this absolutly destroys evolution!

Please explain how biological evolution has anything whatsoever to do with astrophysics. Oh wait, it doesn't, silly me.

I could go on for days with this stuff.

Oh by all means, go ahead, you're just making yourself look foolish. Please, show us the wonders that the religion brings as your brain dribbles out your ears. It's great entertainment.

You are just like all the rest of evolutionist I debate no evidence and story telling contrivances!

First of all you do not add to the genetic code through natural means.

And Second of all you have no clue what I would say concerning the laws of thermodynamics yet you say I know nothing. Thats not very scientific!

Conservation of energy---major blow to evolution

Law of entropy or second law---major blow to evolution

no evidence nor has there ever been evidence for A bio genesis---major blow to evolution and please do not quote the fraudulent work of Stanley Miller a fraudulent liar as other evolutionists have tried before.

The horrendous mathmatical impossibilities to the randon fromation of amino acids to just form one protein which still wouldnt start life along with the astronomical ridiculous mathmatical impossibilties of mutations to occur let ALONE beneficialy and enough or the fact that this doesnt nor has ever nor is therer any evidence to the claims of it ever occuring.mutations cause a loss of information or disease and please do not give the ridiculous sicklecell malaria circular reasoning story. Thats like saying Oh I lost my right arm protecting my left arm. in other words DUMB!!!! ---major blow to evolution


Natural selection is only within its genes of its kind and nothing more. this is absolute irrefutable fact!!!!---major blow to evolution


Irreducible complexity----major blow to evolution


Also if evolution were so undeniably true there would be no debate, this is why evolutionists fight the whole of the evidence because if it was all presented there would be no debate, this is why evolutionists fight opposing sides. So I say what are they afraid of? you have to ask ones self this!

lets keep going here and keep the evolutionists busy trying to come up with more circular reasonig fairytales with NO evidence scientific or otherwise!

Complexity and stability of the cosmos----major blow to evolution

geologic column? it is an assumption not a scientific evidential contrivance. The actual eveidence shows it to be nothing more than realy bad science because when you make something up with no REAL evidence to support ones claims which the geologic column does, thats flat out BAD science!---major blow to evolution


carbon dating doesnt work beyond a few thousand years even the inventor himself said so and agreed also the countless inaccuracies along with potassium argon dating, just plain junk science! ----major blow to evolution

Polystrate fossils---major blow to evolution

thousands of dino fossils found with tissue still in them ----major blow to evolution


All suppossed vestigials of past now known not vestigials---major blow to evolution

also the absurd mathmatical impossibilties to all of the variables to happen randomly is so laughable its sickening for anyone to claim they know science and beleive such a fairytale as evolution. the mathmatical ridiculous of it is astronomical, even for the smallest of things.---this is a major blow to evolution.

population growths counted backwards---for approx 6 billion people---comes to around the same timeline approx. of the bible around 6 to 8 thousand years old also the same timeline for all known evidential civilisations archaeologicaly known today. WOW!!!! what a cincidence!---major blow to evolution


I could go on for days and the evolutionists will just make up circular reasoning fairytales to rebuttal it its funny! Peace!

MODERATOR NOTE:

Can we all try to stay on topic please?