Quoting the Bible

[Flail]

It is as if this book has it's own voice? I know of very few other books(the dictionary, the encyclopedia, the almanac) that are quoted extensively yet without reference to speaker,author or context. Isn't it important "WHO" made the statement referred to in the Bible? Who were they, what were their circumstances, what was their culture and their motivation and credibility? How easily we take this book out of context...because of this and the fact that the bible contains very little about the actual teachings of Jesus, He gets thrown in with all the rest...Paul and the Old Testament....crazy don't you think? Surely it is not based on the "Divinely inspried theory", which was only mentioned by Paul in one of his self-serving rants and has no basis other than his say so..

[OnceConvinced]

OnceConvinced, please allow Flail to respond to this since I am responding to his questions. It is unfair to him and to yourself. It also shows respect to Flail's intelligence that he is able to answer what I am asking and respond to my own critique. You have talked for him quite enough.

I only did that because he hadn't replied to you himself and you seemed to be evading the question.

[jeremiah]

I do not have a problem answering questions. I simply was asking him about his findings in his search first. There's no problem with that. I'm more then happy enough to say I don't know the answer, that gives me a chance to search it out. I'm sure that he can respond to the questions that I pose himself. If he cannot, then that is his choice.

[ken1burton]

Flail.

With the Bible, a lot of those questions are not important. What is important is, Did God inspire the quote? What does the quote mean? What is the Truth being explained?

So the quotes are mor searching for truths then who, or what?

Like when David said:

Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Chances are, David was writing about King Saul who David saw as Lord, and God’s anointed. But the Spirit has it for the Christ. How does David call Jesus Lord, If Jesus is the son of David?

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions .

Know this also, Even though they were not able to answer Jesus, does not mean there is not a Scriptural answer for the question showing Jesus is David’s son.

As far as how little seems to have been written of the teaching of Jesus, The Jewish Holy Scripture which we call the Old Testament, almost 1000 Chapters testify of Jesus. God listing all those jots and tittles Jesus had to fulfill. So there is a wealth or material on Jesus, lots of His thoughts being shown by God.

It is all the prophecies being foretold over 1500 years of writings, by over 40 different men, Which will long be dead before Jesus is laid in a manger in Bethlehem, almost 400 years after Malachi which ends the Old Testament.

It is all those prophecies being fulfilled with Jesus which shows there is a God by His ability to predict in detail the events of one day in time, so far in advance, and having all the different men write what does not contradict. And it shows that Jesus is who God sent by fulfilling those prophecies.

NOW, Jesus had to fulfill what God foretold, Not what Peter thought He did, not what Paul thought He did, For part of the prophecies was to pour out the Spirit of deep sleep upon the others, as a book that is sealed, and Jesus said that the Father had sealed Him also.

So the Old Testament prophecies show the Truth, all others things from the New Testament have to be searched, if these things be true.

Ken

[Desert_Rose2]

That might be so, OnceConvinced, but no matter who answers those questions, or how seriously they might answer them, the person asking those questions will never be satisfied with the answers given till they chose to believe it themselves, or even seek the answers for themselves. People seek truth and answers to life in different ways. Who is one to think they can mock others in the way they search? To quote Flail, "...crazy don't you think?"

exactly, well said.
I have spent years trying to answer people's questions who really don't want to know the answers, and hope I have learnt from that.
A problem is - it's not just for intellectual reasons (if at all) that they don't accept, (whether they realise that or not).
We're more than just mind/brain and many things affect our will and our feelings about matters.
But there are many more people who do genuinely want to know and grow and listen to answers to what they ask.

I do not understand what this topic is doing on a sub-forum which explains it's purpose here
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=3168

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

to have to continually justify using the bible as trusted reference just means we can't get on with depth in discussion.
I see this on mixed forums continually.
It's not fruitful, productive for anyone. Christian or sceptic.

[ken1burton]

Desert_Rose2

Jesus explained a lot in the parable of the Sower. Where the seed is sown, But there is no root in themselves. So they really do not know if it is true or not, So it is taken away from them.

If most of the Search has been done on a Concept, Then just putting the pieces in the right order can be accepted. Sometimes it is just wording it in a way that has not been considered.

Like 24 Elders being 24 Hours instead of trying to figure which 24 people they are. And 4 beasts with 6-wings being 4 6-hour periods, Then two witnesses being 2 12-hour periods as things start to build and fit together.

The Scriptures is a Giant Jigsaw puzzle. Every piece you can fit into the right place, Gets a better look at the whole, And supports the other pieces.

God said to seek and you shall find, He did not say you would find right away. We do have Eternity to work on this.

We get pieces of the Puzzle for a lot of different people, Some being very gentle and kind, Some very rough, Believe it, or do not waste my time, Etc. The reality is, The Rough might get through where gentle fails.

God is involved in all this, God does not want a person to be Given the Answers which they have not searched for. That is why the Comforter or Spirit of Truth LEADS you to all Truths, But you are the one who has to go in and search out the Matter.

That way you know it is Truth, Why it is Truth, What made up this Truth, and why other verses which seem to say something different do not say that.

The object is not so much for you to see a Truth, But to see it, Know it, and be able to show others seeking it. For if you do not share what God shows you, Why should He show you more?

Part of the Debating has to be showing what Scripture you are using is Correct in the Concept and Context you are using it. God speaks in Similitudes, So the Context has to be seen clearly. And has to be shown that is what God means.

Also there are major Contradictions in Scripture, Jesus had to fulfill the prophecies to the Jot and Tittle, But Peter preached something diffferent, as did the other Disciples, Paul, and even Jesus Himself.

But Searching the Scriptures meant to search the Jewish Holy Scripture or the Old Testament. They are the Foundations of God’s Truth.

This is what God said He would do:

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

And that SEAL in Daniel 9:24 kept the Disciples, Paul and Even Jesus said the Father had sealed Him, from seeing sin ended as accountable unto man, And that He brought in everlasting righteousness (Jesus seen rendering to man His Righteousness in Job 33:26)

So all our Righteousness is as filthy rags, Because Jesus gave us Him, So by Grace are we saved, Through Faith, and that not of ourselves, Jesus gave us His.

Seeking with your whole heart is as Your Toddler wandered away in the Mall, That is what God means to seek as. When all things are put aside, and the need to find makes you frantic. And you do not stop seeking till you do find.

Ken

[I.Caine]

It is as if this book has it's own voice?

The 'voice' of the bible is not it's own but of the user. Many times I've seen individuals misquote their bibles or bend the scripture to suit a point.

Isn't it important "WHO" made the statement referred to in the Bible? Who were they, what were their circumstances, what was their culture and their motivation and credibility?

I agree with Desert_Rose2 that the credibility of the bible is not a topic to be discussed in this forum. However, there is another matter along the lines of biblical credibility that may be interesting to look into. Some people will take only those lines from the bible that fit a theme, say Love or Mercy, then talk solely over that without looking at the surrounding text for a deeper, richer meaning. Sometimes Love in one passage may mean a different thing than love in a different passage. Of course I am using love here rhetorically and not as an actual example.

So when one says God is Love because of passages A, B, C, and D another could reply that passage A does not mean the same thing as B, C, or D, because of factors X, Y, Z and therefore A should not be used in conjunction with B, C, or D.

So the speaker, culture, circumstances, and motivation do need to be evaluated so that the greater context is not missed and a more accurate portrayal of the bible is achieved.

[ken1burton]

I.Caine

That is why this forum is called Debating, There are a lot of verses covering hundreds of Concepts. Many have their favorite verses for any given concept. But the others can all jump in and show what verses seem to contradict.

What people will or will not accept is here a lot, and even showing a good reference does not mean it will be accepted as Truth, But at least a seed has been planted, and that is what God desires of us, When we see a Truth, to share it. So we also learn the Arguments for and against the concepts.

It is like receiving God’s word, then having it taken away because we have no root in ourselves, These debates give us those roots or support of the Concepts. It then can not be taken away if it is truth and we have the Roots to back it up. It might not be accepted by others, But we will keep it as truth as we see the whole concept.

There are too many Concepts with too many interlocking truths to have the Bible say what a person wants it to say different from the Real Truth, Many might get away with that for awhile. Sooner or Later someone comes with Roots of that Concept. And will show it correctly. Accept or not is a personal issue.

Many come to see Jesus is the Christ, Not all accept it, It is Seek and ye shall find, It is not Seek and ye shall find and always accept.

Often concepts have believed Packages. To see God without Eternal Punishment for the Wicked is not acceptable to many. So when a lot of Concepts have to also fit to accept anything. The Learning is not going to work very good. For they are not seeing Truths, But trying to mold truth.

It is what Truth really says, and Truth does not have to meet our criteria. Or the Church’s

This is how God hides a lot of things. He makes things so offensive, People will not accept it. And not accepting one truth, Hinders all the other interlocking ones.

Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Simple enough, Jesus is David’s physical son, Raised to be the Son of God, But which son? God uses that which is despised, So God chooses to use the one conceived outside wedlock that died seven days after Birth. And for 2,000 years most of mankind can not figure it out, That will end in 2029 A.D. when Israel will figure that out, and most of the rest.

Ken