"I am God."

[spiritletter]

In the Gospel, Christ says to his disciples, "I am God." I have always wondered about interpretations here. Does he mean that he is actually God, or does he mean that he is God's example? Is he God manifesting in the flesh, like an avatar in Hinduism, or is he saying that he is God-like, as all human beings are when they are acting according to his teachings (in Hinduism, there is God, or Brahman, and the holy part of all human beings, Atman. The aim of Hinduism is to bring the two into alignment with each other). I've never really been privy to a discussion about this.

No howling preaching or threats of damnation, please. I'm just asking for a discussion.

[twobitsmedia]

God became human so that humans may become God.

??? Why would he want to do that??

[McCulloch]

Bernee raises, I think, a pivotal issue.

[mrow]Human [mcol]God [row]mortal [col]immortal [row]limited in knowledge [col]all-knowing [row]intrinsically sinful [col]all goodness personified [row]basically powerless [col]all powerful

So how is it possible that the Christian assertion that Jesus was fully God and fully human is true? Is Jesus limited in knowledge or all-knowing? Is Jesus inherently sinful or sinless? Is Jesus limited in power or omnipotent? Is Jesus mortal or immortal.

[Metatron]

Bernee raises, I think, a pivotal issue.

[mrow]Human [mcol]God [row]mortal [col]immortal [row]limited in knowledge [col]all-knowing [row]intrinsically sinful [col]all goodness personified [row]basically powerless [col]all powerful

So how is it possible that the Christian assertion that Jesus was fully God and fully human is true? Is Jesus limited in knowledge or all-knowing? Is Jesus inherently sinful or sinless? Is Jesus limited in power or omnipotent? Is Jesus mortal or immortal.

1. Mortal vs. Immortal

This one's easy. He died on the cross therefore mortal.

2. Limited Knowledge vs. Omniscience

Got to go with limited knowledge.

Matthew 24:36:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son but only the Father.

If the Son (Jesus) does not know when he's coming back, he's not omniscient. The phrase also clearly delineates the Son from the Father with the Father being the only one who knows when the Second Coming will take place. The Trinity concept that Jesus and God are the same entity seems rather silly in this context.

We also have the case of Jesus being tempted by Satan in the wilderness. The notion that God Incarnate can be tempted by Satan is ludicrous.

We also have this phrase:

Mark 15:34:

34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

This is certainly an odd thing for God Incarnate to say to HIMSELF! This is not a phrase that one would associate with omniscience or membership in a trinity.

3. Sinful vs. Sinless

Hmmm...technically by the religious laws in place at the time, Jesus is a sinner.

He proposes that we follow the Law here:

Matthew 5:17-19:

The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

However, he gives his disciples a pass when it comes to observing the laws concerning the Sabbath:

Matthew 12:1-8:

1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one[a] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

There are several times when Jesus seems to repudiate laws concerning honoring one's parents. One example is:

Luke 14:26:

26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

Of course, here Jesus disses all familial relationships, not just parental.

Then there is repudiation of Jewish dietary laws:

Mark 7:18-19:

18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

We also have the fact that Jesus seems to constantly repudiate the authority of the rabbis of the Sanhedrin yet we have this:

Matthew 23:1-3:

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

While Jesus considers the Pharisees hypocrites and tells people not to emulate their actions, he seems pretty clear on following their orders as the duly constituted judges of the law. His frequent disobedience to these same Pharisees seems rather inconsistent and, by the religious laws then current, sinful.

4. Powerless vs. Omnipotent

Juries out on this one. Jesus performs a number of snazzy miracles so he clearly is not powerless. However, none of them qualify him as omnipotent.

[McCulloch]

1. Mortal vs. Immortal

This one's easy. He died on the cross therefore mortal.

2. Limited Knowledge vs. Omniscience

Got to go with limited knowledge.

3. Sinful vs. Sinless

Hmmm...technically by the religious laws in place at the time, Jesus is a sinner.

4. Powerless vs. Omnipotent

Juries out on this one. Jesus performs a number of snazzy miracles so he clearly is not powerless. However, none of them qualify him as omnipotent.

So by the standard definitions and attributes, Jesus was human not God.

[Catharsis]

>>>So by the standard definitions and attributes, Jesus was human not God.<<<

One word: Resurrection.


As for Jesus being human, Jesus took upon our nature in every aspect -- what part of 'God became human' was not clear?

[led by the spirit]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God;
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,

Joh 1:5 and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.
Joh 1:6 There came a man--having been sent from God--whose name is John,
Joh 1:7 this one came for testimony, that he might testify about the Light, that all might believe through him;
Joh 1:8 that one was not the Light, but--that he might testify about the Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;
Joh 1:10 in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him:
Joh 1:11 to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him;
Joh 1:12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God--to those believing in his name,
Joh 1:13 who--not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but--of God were begotten.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

[Goat]

>>>So by the standard definitions and attributes, Jesus was human not God.<<<

One word: Resurrection.


As for Jesus being human, Jesus took upon our nature in every aspect -- what part of 'God became human' was not clear?

What part of "God is not a man that he should lie, and god is not the son of man that he should repent' is not clear to you?

[McCulloch]

>>>So by the standard definitions and attributes, Jesus was human not God.<<<

One word: Resurrection.


As for Jesus being human, Jesus took upon our nature in every aspect -- what part of 'God became human' was not clear?

So was Jesus God before the resurrection. How could he remain God when he became human? How can one be both? That is the part of 'God became human' that is not clear.

[Catharsis]

McCulloch, I'll try to answer your questions when I come back from vacation.

[bbc1785]

Interesting and, in my view, a really important discussion.
When you look at the gospels, don't you have to say that Jesus was both God and man? He got tired - that's human; but he also calmed a storm and brought people back to life - that's God's work. It's hard to get our minds around how someone can possess both a human and a divine nature, but Christians believe it because it best fit the evidence presented in the gospel records. And, of course, the Christian understanding of God as Trinity (one God in three persons) begins from there.
Thanks.