Is Sin Real?

[graphicsguy]

The Bible states that ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. It states we are born in sin because of Adam. It states that the human heart is exceedingly wicked.

It is true that human beings are capable of incredible cruelty, but as a whole are we exceedingly wicked?

I mean, does everybody on earth have a "dark side"?

I know I used to have one when my hormones were out of whack. I think I was certainly capable of doing some very horrendous deeds considering some of the things I used to imagine doing or becoming.

I do believe that any human being is also capable of very surprising amounts of evil.

I also believe that any human being is capable of doing great good.

I have known and heard of very good non-Christians.
I have known and heard of very bad Christians.
I have known and heard of very good Christians.
I have known and heard of very bad non-Christians.

So, is "sin" just a term for "normal" human behavior or is it actually real and we are just simply slaves to its biddings?

[MagusYanam]

is "sin" just a term for "normal" human behavior or is it actually real and we are just simply slaves to its biddings?

Sometimes it can come off as a little odd that a liberal Christian like me starts off on a topic like this by referring back to the creation story. But I think that the story of Adam and Eve is a useful one here. Before Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the irony is that they knew exactly what was right and what was wrong - God had told them not to eat of the tree. After eating the fruit, they became confused about what was right and what was wrong - they came under the impression that being naked was wrong, even though God had not told them this. After this, they were cast out of paradise.

So what does it mean to be fallen? This story holds that in the concept of sin, there is separation and there is confusion as a result of that separation. As my father is fond of saying, 'sin isn't just being naughty', it's something deeper. I hold that to some extent, we all have some degree of moral confusion, and it seems that the more certain we become, the more likely we are to make mistakes.

In answer to your question, 'is "sin" just a term for "normal" human behaviour?' sin is an inescapable element of human behaviour, but the way I would put it is that it is an inescapable element of the human condition, and the way in which we interact with each other and with our world. We all have this separation that comes with sapience, separation from the desires and needs and thoughts of other human beings and separation from those of God. As such, asking 'are we simply slaves to its biddings?' is equivalent to asking, 'are we simply slaves to our own sense of self?'

It is true that human beings are capable of incredible cruelty, but as a whole are we exceedingly wicked?

Capable of incredible cruelty? You need only glance at a page of our history as a species to find the answer to affirm it.

But I don't think it's productive to characterise human beings as wicked and hopelessly sinful. We all fall short; there's no avoiding it. But that doesn't mean that our imaginations can't be challenged, that we can't be motivated by the grace of God into doing great and good things. And I think there is greater use in such motivation than in just 'convicting people of their sin'.

[graphicsguy]

Sometimes it can come off as a little odd that a liberal Christian like me starts off on a topic like this by referring back to the creation story.

I would actually be surprised if any Christian started somewhere else.

and it seems that the more certain we become, the more likely we are to make mistakes.

This seems to be what happens when religious people go on a killing spree or something horrible thing. It's as if they are so focused on one type of evil and consider themselves so far above it that they truly believe they are God's hand of judgement.

Capable of incredible cruelty? You need only glance at a page of our history as a species to find the answer to affirm it.

Yes, I said it was true. I meant that it is certainly true of individuals and even groups, but is it true of the ENTIRE population? IS everyone so evil? IS this evil sin so ingrained in us that it "makes" us do these horrible things to each other and ourselves?

[Goat]

is "sin" just a term for "normal" human behavior or is it actually real and we are just simply slaves to its biddings?

Sometimes it can come off as a little odd that a liberal Christian like me starts off on a topic like this by referring back to the creation story. But I think that the story of Adam and Eve is a useful one here. Before Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the irony is that they knew exactly what was right and what was wrong - God had told them not to eat of the tree. After eating the fruit, they became confused about what was right and what was wrong - they came under the impression that being naked was wrong, even though God had not told them this. After this, they were cast out of paradise.

So what does it mean to be fallen? This story holds that in the concept of sin, there is separation and there is confusion as a result of that separation. As my father is fond of saying, 'sin isn't just being naughty', it's something deeper. I hold that to some extent, we all have some degree of moral confusion, and it seems that the more certain we become, the more likely we are to make mistakes.

In answer to your question, 'is "sin" just a term for "normal" human behaviour?' sin is an inescapable element of human behaviour, but the way I would put it is that it is an inescapable element of the human condition, and the way in which we interact with each other and with our world. We all have this separation that comes with sapience, separation from the desires and needs and thoughts of other human beings and separation from those of God. As such, asking 'are we simply slaves to its biddings?' is equivalent to asking, 'are we simply slaves to our own sense of self?'

It is true that human beings are capable of incredible cruelty, but as a whole are we exceedingly wicked?

Capable of incredible cruelty? You need only glance at a page of our history as a species to find the answer to affirm it.

But I don't think it's productive to characterise human beings as wicked and hopelessly sinful. We all fall short; there's no avoiding it. But that doesn't mean that our imaginations can't be challenged, that we can't be motivated by the grace of God into doing great and good things. And I think there is greater use in such motivation than in just 'convicting people of their sin'.

But DID they. The tree was the knowledge of right and wrong. Before they had the knowledge of right and wrong, did they KNOW what right and wrong is? Being told something is a big difference from understanding it.

[graphicsguy]

It is usually translated "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

But is "good and evil" "right and wrong" always the same thing?

Seems to me that "rightness" and "wrongness" have levels built into the terms. Thus we can say that "this" is not as bad as "that".

The terms "good" and "evil" seem to be more blanket black and white.

But, then the Bible states that the human heart (thus humans in general) is evil and that ONLY God is good.

Were Adam and Eve created evil then and the fruit merely "opened their eyes" to that knowledge?

[MagusYanam]

This seems to be what happens when religious people go on a killing spree or something horrible thing. It's as if they are so focused on one type of evil and consider themselves so far above it that they truly believe they are God's hand of judgement.

I feel as if it's that way with all sorts of dogmatism, not just the religious. When people start valuing an ideology and viewing people as means to an ideological end, it opens the door for all manner of evil.

Yes, I said it was true. I meant that it is certainly true of individuals and even groups, but is it true of the ENTIRE population? IS everyone so evil? IS this evil sin so ingrained in us that it "makes" us do these horrible things to each other and ourselves?

Well, there's capability and then there's intent. I think that everyone is capable of an amount of evil that would surely surprise them, but whether or not they'd do it is another matter entirely.

Also, I don't think evil is that clear-cut. Often it is an extremely subtle thing, and cloaks itself about in rationalisation. If you've ever watched Deep Space Nine (excellent show, by the way) if you notice the character of Gul Dukat, it's amazing how well he's acted - often he's able to convince even his enemies that he is wise and caring, when in truth he is so convinced of his own rightness that it leads him to commit atrocities, betray his own followers, single-mindedly pursue vengeance, all the while insisting that he is a good man, and it was his victims who forced his hand.

[Catharsis]

graphicsguy, it seems that you're looking at sin from a legal or moralistic point of view -- correct me if I'm wrong. People think of sin as a violation of some moral code (good vs. bad), which is not the case. The ancient understanding of sin means 'being cut off from God'.

Original sin according to Tradition, means the original separation and alienation of the entire human race from God. Adam and Eve, as the primordial humans, disrupted the relationship of oneness with God through the Fall. They consequently became trapped and entangled within this world of three dimensions, of passions, of sin (murder, cruelty, avarice, etc.). The entire Creation suffered as a result of this split between humanity and God. This is what is meant when you say that we have all 'sinned' and 'fallen short' -- 'sinned' ancestrally, not legally in any way.

Sin is "normal human behaviour", and real since it is a result of the original/ancestral sin. It is simply human nature for people to entertain and have all sorts of Thoughts (Voluntary and Involuntary), since they are acquired since the Fall.

[Desert_Rose2]

The Bible states that ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. It states we are born in sin because of Adam. It states that the human heart is exceedingly wicked.

It is true that human beings are capable of incredible cruelty, but as a whole are we exceedingly wicked?

I mean, does everybody on earth have a "dark side"?

yes, I do, don't you?

I know I used to have one when my hormones were out of whack. I think I was certainly capable of doing some very horrendous deeds considering some of the things I used to imagine doing or becoming.

so is sin only what 'we' might think of as very 'bad' stuff?
What about daily self-ishness?

I do believe that any human being is also capable of very surprising amounts of evil.

I also believe that any human being is capable of doing great good.

I have known and heard of very good non-Christians.
I have known and heard of very bad Christians.
I have known and heard of very good Christians.
I have known and heard of very bad non-Christians.

yes

So, is "sin" just a term for "normal" human behavior or is it actually real and we are just simply slaves to its biddings?

some are slaves to it.
Some are not, as that is what the Saviour is for. Freedom.

[r~]

A sin is any transgression; no matter how small; no matter whether it is against man or God and nature. We live by the death of plants or animals. We cannot help but affect our neighbors.

We are all sinners. Yet if we but love our neighbors as ourselves and forgive the sins of others, our sins will be thus forgiven.

ItS
Peace
r~

[Nameless]

Please forgive a repost, but it is short and, perhaps, relevent here;

The bible story has Jesus saying that "heaven is at hand".
Translation;
"You are already in 'heaven'.
The 'thing' keeping you from Realizing this is your 'sinful pride'.
('Sin' doesn't 'hurt' a 'god', it 'hurts' you!)
You exist in the center of 'heaven' and yet hallucinate monsters!
In our delusional tumultous mind (infected with 'belief/pride') we cannot see what is closer than our own thoughts!
We never 'get to' heaven! We are Here/Now!
If we are not in 'heaven' Here/Now, we will never 'get there'."

"There is no 'Judgement Day' by 'god' a'commin, it is inherent in the Here/Now!"
-Book of Fudd