The free will theodicy fails biblically

[Ray the atheist]

Preamble:

I have been trying to get at the foundational claims of Christianity, and started with the Adam and Eve narrative.

After making over a dozen arguments on that topic, I feel that I should take a break and offer something new... And the idea of free will comes up over and over in the arguments from Christians in defence of God's behaviour over what is sometimes called " the fruit incident " or more commonly, "the fall of man".

The free-will theodicy attempts to explain why God permits evil.

It argues God permits evil because humans possess free will and genuine choices require the possibility of wrongdoing.
If free will isn't real, then the free will theodicy fails.

I would also add that free will is never mentioned in the bible. If free will is so important to the god as to justify creating and allowing evil in our world, I find that to be a truly troubling omission.
The bible doesn't once mention such an important concept, and in fact, shows that the God actually violates people's will.. that's the opposite of promoting free will....
I am using the libertarian idea of free will because thats the kind Christians use:

Libertarian free will is the ability to choose between alternatives such that the choice is not entirely determined by prior causes or conditions.

The Bible portrays God hardening hearts, determining events, and fulfilling purposes, undermining the claim that libertarian free will is essential to God’s plan.
If you need bible references for those claims, just ask. I don't add them all here because the list is too long. Please, don't ask me to list them all in one shot. Just ask when it's relevant to your argument.

The Argument:

P1: The Bible never explicitly establishes libertarian free will as a necessary feature of human agency.
P2: The Bible repeatedly portrays God hardening hearts and determining human actions.
P3: Christian free-will theodicy depends on libertarian free will to explain why God permits evil.
C: Therefore, Christian free-will theodicy fails biblically.

[1213]

...I think you are describing compatibilist free will, specifically the ability to choose and act according to your own desires, even when those desires are determined by prior causes.

You would need to explain in what way we are " free " when those desires are determined by prior causes.

Are you saying you cannot resist your own desires?

I think we are free in that we can choose what we want, or don’t want.

[1213]

I'd be happy to go through each one with you to find out why you don't think they mean what I think they do.

For example you gave the 1. Proverbs 16:9 “A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.”

That says, God directs steps, not that God determines. God giving directions is not the same as determining.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #41]

Are you saying you cannot resist your own desires?

I think we are free in that we can choose what we want, or don’t want.

No, I don't think I can resist my own desires.

All my desires are predetermined by some cause.

I used to desire to smoke cigarettes, I had no choice in the matter. You would have to prove that I had a choice, not just declare it.

I got addicted to smoking cigarettes, and had no choice in the matter. You would have to prove that I had a choice and not just simply assert it.

Then, some cause or causes had me desire to quit.
I had no choice in the matter. You would have to prove that I did have a choice.

You keep saying that we have free will, but you can't seem to prove it.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #42]

Me: I'd be happy to go through each one with you to find out why you don't think they mean what I think they do.

You: For example you gave the 1. Proverbs 16:9 “A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.”

That says, God directs steps, not that God determines. God giving directions is not the same as determining.

You are correct that the word used isn't "determined". That doesn't mean that God didnt devise, and then direct his steps.

What do you think "direct his steps" mean?

Does it mean not directing his steps?

[1213]

No, I don't think I can resist my own desires.

All my desires are predetermined by some cause.

I used to desire to smoke cigarettes, I had no choice in the matter. You would have to prove that I had a choice, not just declare it.
...

I think it could be that person gets a desire without choosing it. However, I think it is always persons own choice to act according to the desire. If one wants to stop smoking, he can do that, even if there is a strong desire not to stop. However, if there is strong desire, which in a way is the same as strong will to do it, it can be difficult.

And I think it is an interesting question, is desire not the same as person’s own will to do something? If you desire to do something, you want to do it. And if you want to do something, there is some reason why. When you understand why you want something, you can also stop wanting it, if you don't like it.

You keep saying that we have free will, but you can't seem to prove it.

Neither can you prove that I don't have free will.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #42]

Me: I'd be happy to go through each one with you to find out why you don't think they mean what I think they do.

You: For example you gave the 1. Proverbs 16:9 “A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.”

That says, God directs steps, not that God determines. God giving directions is not the same as determining.

You are correct that the word used isn't "determined". That doesn't mean that God didnt devise, and then direct his steps.

What do you think "direct his steps" mean?

Does it mean not directing his steps?

I think directing steps can mean for example God telling what would be best to do. I think it can also mean giving circumstances where person chooses to do certain things.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #45]

You: I think it could be that person gets a desire without choosing it.

Me: Before I ate ice cream, i didn't know enough to desire it. As soon as I tasted it, i had no choice but to desire it.

I agree that sometimes a person gets a desire without choosing it.

You: However, I think it is always persons own choice to act according to the desire. If one wants to stop smoking, he can do that, even if there is a strong desire not to stop. However, if there is strong desire, which in a way is the same as strong will to do it, it can be difficult.

Once I have a desire, I can change it due to another desire. When I developed the desire for ice cream, my mom had to stop me from eating it too much.

I learned that it wasn't good for me and I desired good health more than any tasty treat.

So, my desire for good health superseded my desire for ice cream and still does. But please, don't buy any ice cream, I wont have a choice but to eat it .. ice cream is bad for my health, I dont want it in my freezer.

My joke is about how desires can be caused by external forces, like how sweets are yummers to humans and my mom stopping me, and then my desire for health stops me from time to time.

So, we could talk about why I love sweets in the first place and if I chose to love sweets or if I was determined by my DNA....

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #45]

And I think it is an interesting question, is desire not the same as person’s own will to do something? If you desire to do something, you want to do it. And if you want to do something, there is some reason why. When you understand why you want something, you can also stop wanting it, if you don't like it.

Yes, desire is a will to do something by my definitions so we agree.

If I desire something, i want it.

If I want something, there are usually reasons. Those reasons might be unknown to me and are called "subconscious" reasons unknown. When I get a strong feeling that I dont know the cause of, I think it's probably caused by something that I am not aware of, and also call it "irrational" since my reason didn't come into the desire.. I just "have" the desire or want.

And when I figure out that my desire is irrational, I can see if the desire is beneficial to me or not even if I don't know why I have it.

I dont have any rational reason to love ice cream or to prefer vanilla ice cream over all other flavours ive tried so far.

So, I figure... maybe there's biology involved and my frontal lobes might want to weigh in .. so I use my reasoning... will I eat the ice cream or not, based on REASONING.

Not just the desire that pops up unbidden.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #45]

Me: You keep saying that we have free will, but you can't seem to prove it.

You: Neither can you prove that I don't have free will.

So the two of us are admitting that we have no evidence for free will one way or the other.