Can Atheism ground objective morality?
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The Tanager
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Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #1In my exploration and discussions, I have not seen an atheistic worldview be able to logically account for morality being objective. The closest I've seen is an atheistic platonic kind of moral system, but while that seems to be able to account for the existence of 'good' and 'evil', it still doesn't seem to account for why humans would be obligated to choose Good over Evil. I'd love to hear cases from those who think atheism can account for objective morality to make sure I haven't missed (or misunderstood) thoughts in my exploration.
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Ray the atheist
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #151[Replying to The Tanager in post #150]
I have to admit that I'm very confused about your critique.
I THINK you are saying that Im using the word "subjective" to mean two different things.. maybe you can let me know what those two things are...
If you aren't talking about how I use the word subjective, let me know.
Me: Because if you agree that moral opinions are subjective, you can't logically agree that they are objective at the very same time.
Do you agree that moral opinions ( say.... about murder ) are subjective?
You: This is why I said using the same term to mean two distinct concepts could be confusing. You are equivocating on subjective for your bolded part above.
If one agrees that moral opinions are subjective(2), you can logically agree that they are objective at the same time. That's because objective goes against subjective(1), not subjective(2). It's only if one agrees that moral opinions are subjective(1) that you can't logically agree that they are objective at the very same time.
I have to admit that I'm very confused about your critique.
I THINK you are saying that Im using the word "subjective" to mean two different things.. maybe you can let me know what those two things are...
If you aren't talking about how I use the word subjective, let me know.
I study religiously motivated reasoning. I'm an agnostic atheist and I don't believe in the supernatural or superstitions. I genuinely want to engage your ideas charitably and respectfully. I value critical thinking, empathy, intellectual honesty, and civil disagreement. I am committed to understanding each other’s arguments, remaining open to correction, and discussing arguments rather than attack each other.
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The Tanager
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #152[Replying to Ray the atheist in post #151]
Or to get at the same thing another way, you are slightly shifting the question. Instead of asking about a feature of reality (morality), you are asking about our view on that feature of reality (moral opinion) and analyzing our view. Of course, personal moral opinions are going to be subjective; they must be by definition. But then we are analyzing moral opinion as opinions. We need to analyze morality.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is why I initially answered your question by saying that my moral opinion is that murder is objectively immoral as opposed to subjectively immoral. I was trying to avoid this exact misunderstanding. One sense of 'subjective' you are using has the synonym of 'personal'. The other involves a feature of reality being based on preference/personal opinion/etc. rather than something outside of individual preferences.Ray the atheist wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2026 8:54 amI have to admit that I'm very confused about your critique.
I THINK you are saying that Im using the word "subjective" to mean two different things.. maybe you can let me know what those two things are...
Or to get at the same thing another way, you are slightly shifting the question. Instead of asking about a feature of reality (morality), you are asking about our view on that feature of reality (moral opinion) and analyzing our view. Of course, personal moral opinions are going to be subjective; they must be by definition. But then we are analyzing moral opinion as opinions. We need to analyze morality.
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Ray the atheist
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #153[Replying to The Tanager in post #152]
Me: I THINK you are saying that Im using the word "subjective" to mean two different things.. maybe you can let me know what those two things are...
You: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is why I initially answered your question by saying that my moral opinion is that murder is objectively immoral as opposed to subjectively immoral. I was trying to avoid this exact misunderstanding. One sense of 'subjective' you are using has the synonym of 'personal'. The other involves a feature of reality being based on preference/personal opinion/etc. rather than something outside of individual preferences.
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I think I got it, let me check.
I think you agree that moral judgments are subjective, but you argue that morality itself can nevertheless be objectively true.
Is that it?
Me: I THINK you are saying that Im using the word "subjective" to mean two different things.. maybe you can let me know what those two things are...
You: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is why I initially answered your question by saying that my moral opinion is that murder is objectively immoral as opposed to subjectively immoral. I was trying to avoid this exact misunderstanding. One sense of 'subjective' you are using has the synonym of 'personal'. The other involves a feature of reality being based on preference/personal opinion/etc. rather than something outside of individual preferences.
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I think I got it, let me check.
I think you agree that moral judgments are subjective, but you argue that morality itself can nevertheless be objectively true.
Is that it?
I study religiously motivated reasoning. I'm an agnostic atheist and I don't believe in the supernatural or superstitions. I genuinely want to engage your ideas charitably and respectfully. I value critical thinking, empathy, intellectual honesty, and civil disagreement. I am committed to understanding each other’s arguments, remaining open to correction, and discussing arguments rather than attack each other.
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The Tanager
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Re: Can Atheism ground objective morality?
Post #154[Replying to Ray the atheist in post #153]
If, by that you mean something like the following, yes:
I think moral judgements as judgements/positions/views are definitionally subjective/personal. I think those judgments can be that X is either objectively immoral or subjectively immoral.
Just like I think judgments about the shape of the earth as a judgement is definitionally subjective/personal, even though we can go beyond that and say we are making a personal judgement that the shape of the earth is an objective feature of reality because of various facts and reasons.
If, by that you mean something like the following, yes:
I think moral judgements as judgements/positions/views are definitionally subjective/personal. I think those judgments can be that X is either objectively immoral or subjectively immoral.
Just like I think judgments about the shape of the earth as a judgement is definitionally subjective/personal, even though we can go beyond that and say we are making a personal judgement that the shape of the earth is an objective feature of reality because of various facts and reasons.
