Atheism cannot be wrong

[Ray the atheist]

Preamble:

What can I possibly mean by that?
Notice that the title is about Atheism, and not Atheists..
I will be making that quite plain below

But first….

Definitions:

Atheism:

A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is an expression of a disbelief.
When I say that I'm an atheist, I am expressing my disbelief, I'm not making a claim that the god isn't real.
It might be real, I might be mistaken, your god might be real, but as an atheist, I just don't believe it.

Theism:

A belief in at least one god.
Theism is an expression of belief. When I say that I'm a theist, I'm expressing my belief that at least one god exists. My god might not be real. I might be mistaken. But as a theist, I believe that my god is real.

_________________________

Atheism isn't a moral claim:

Atheism cannot be morally wrong, as in “evil,” and it cannot be morally right, as in “good.”

Atheism isn't a truth claim:

Atheism cannot be factually wrong, as in “false,” and it cannot be factually right, as in “true.”

It cannot be factually or morally wrong to express a belief, or a disbelief.

So, atheism cannot be logically wrong, and it cannot be morally wrong.
______________________________

I am making the STRONG distinction here between "atheism" and "atheist".

Atheists can and do have moral and factual judgments of claims.. For example, I am very willing to discuss my conclusions about Christianity and all theism in general.

Atheists and Atheism are not identical.
The first means people who do not believe in gods, and the second is the position of a non-belief in gods.

I will remind you of that at the end of my preamble.
The distinction is crucial.

______________________________

Here is an example of a short conversation to explain what that means:

Christian : Hi.
Atheist: I don't believe in your god.
Christian: Is atheism making the truth claim that "there are no gods"?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making the claim that Atheism is correct?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making a truth claim?
Atheist: No. Atheism itself makes no truth claim. “I don't believe in your god” describes my mental state, not a claim about whether your god exists.

As you can see, the only claim that an atheist needs to make is that "I don't believe in your god".

_________________________

As to morality, it's the same deal:

Christian: Hi.
Atheist: I don't follow your morality.
Christian: Are you claiming that my morality is evil?
Atheist: Atheism itself makes no moral claims. I have my own, personal opinions, though.
Christian: Does atheism claim the moral high ground?
Atheist: No.
Christian: When it comes to morality, what ARE you claiming?
Atheist: Atheism does not make a moral claim. I'm simply saying that I don't follow your morality, and I can explain why.
________________________________________

The atheist in these conversations isn't making a truth claim about the existence of your God, and it's not making a moral claim about your God, your religion, or yourself.

“I don't believe X” does not logically entail “I believe not-X.”

Example: “I don't believe extraterrestrial life exists” does not mean “I believe extraterrestrial life does not exist.”

Christians should be aware of what most modern atheists are saying because it would save us all a lot of time.

Pew provides useful evidence. In 2019, 97% of self-described atheists defined atheist as someone who does not believe in God, rather than explicitly claiming God does not exist.

This 97% can be noticed across most social media, including reddit atheists. Very few atheists insist that they know there is no God. .. It would be nice if reddit allowed for polls, we could make a quick test of what atheists actually claim.

So, if you can accept that we aren't making any truth claim or moral claim, then, atheism can't be factually or morally wrong.

Remember, that I'm not talking about my personal position on Christianity as the truth, nor am I talking about my personal position on Christianity as morally righteous.

Those would be my personal opinions, not the meaning of atheism.


The Argument:

P1: Non-belief in X does not entail a factual or moral claim about X.
P2: Atheism, understood as non-belief, is non-belief in gods.

C: Therefore, atheism cannot be factually or morally wrong.

[Mr E]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #69]

Language disagrees with what your group tells you to believe about atheists.

My group? lol.

I have no bullpen.

It's tiresome in the extreme. You don't believe in (a) God.

Atheism is a belief "without God." So step up to the microphone.

What is your alternative belief, Clown?

[Vilferatus]

Dude, did you just copy-pasted a response to "Presuppositional apologetics" without even realizing that is not my position? I never claimed that God exist because logic exist... my claim is this: When you are debating, you are attempting to use logic to prove your stance to be objectively correct. At the point you entered a teistic framework where the concept of God is an axiom.

So everything you said is a Strawman... and you ignored my point. Something you do all the time btw.

Since you refused to start a new thread that described your argument in detail when I asked for that information in response to your PM some time ago, my only option is to form a tentative hypothesis about what position you seem to be defending based on various clues from your posts. Accordingly, my response to your "strawman" accusation is the same now as it was the last several times you hid behind it: A response based on an honest misunderstanding of your position is not a strawman, especially when you refuse to provide the detailed premises and conclusion of your argument. When you are ready to fully disclose the argument you're defending, let me know.

Ill do the same courtesy as you (copy paste the response to you answer, the only difference is that in my case, im actually answering to your comment, not to my assumptions of what you think):

"Dude, did you just copy-pasted a response to "Presuppositional apologetics" without even realizing that is not my position? I never claimed that God exist because logic exist... my claim is this: When you are debating, you are attempting to use logic to prove your stance to be objectively correct. At the point you entered a teistic framework where the concept of God is an axiom. "

[Vilferatus]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #69]

Language disagrees with what your group tells you to believe about atheists.

My group? lol.

I have no bullpen.

It's tiresome in the extreme. You don't believe in (a) God.

Atheism is a belief "without God." So step up to the microphone.

What is your alternative belief, Clown?

The whole 8 pages wont be enough for none of them to explain their framework, because the know it would get logically crushed immediatly. Is not that they dont have one, is just they know the can not defend it. Fanatism and dogma are the words that describe their position.

[Clownboat]

And if an atheistic framework (without God) what do these atheists offer in place of God?

Some might believe and offer you the idea that morality is derived from society for example and not derived from one of our available god concepts.

Again, the ONLY thing you can know if someone claims to be an atheist is that they lack belief in all of our available god concepts.
I know you hate this part, but many humans hear about your god concept, the Muslims god concept and the Hindu's god concepts and are fully content going on with life withholding beliefs until or unless shown that they need to amend their thinking. They're not your enemy and they even share in your lack of belief when it comes to competing gods.

Acknowledging this ruins the Us vs Them that many groups like to propagate, but reality is what it is and emotions need to stay out of the way.
Atheism is to lack belief in the gods. The Christian God does not get special treatment. The lack of belief in Christ/Jehovah is same as the lack of belief in Vishnu whether you like it or not.

[bluegreenearth]

"Dude, did you just copy-pasted a response to "Presuppositional apologetics" without even realizing that is not my position? I never claimed that God exist because logic exist... my claim is this: When you are debating, you are attempting to use logic to prove your stance to be objectively correct. At the point you entered a teistic framework where the concept of God is an axiom. "

What are the detailed premeses and conclusion of the argument for your claim?

[Mr E]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #74]

Some might believe and offer you the idea that morality is derived from society for example and not derived from one of our available god concepts.

Again, the ONLY thing you can know if someone claims to be an atheist is that they lack belief in all of our available god concepts.
I know you hate this part, but many humans hear about your god concept, the Muslims god concept and the Hindu's god concepts and are fully content going on with life withholding beliefs until or unless shown that they need to amend their thinking. They're not your enemy and they even share in your lack of belief when it comes to competing gods.

Acknowledging this ruins the Us vs Them that many groups like to propagate, but reality is what it is and emotions need to stay out of the way.
Atheism is to lack belief in the gods. The Christian God does not get special treatment. The lack of belief in Christ/Jehovah is same as the lack of belief in Vishnu whether you like it or not.

Nice try. A swing and a miss (to continue with the baseball analogies).

What do YOU believe, @clownboat ?

[Clownboat]

My group? lol.

I have no bullpen.

No church? No group of like minded people? I question this.

It's tiresome in the extreme. You don't believe in (a) God.

Correct, I do lack belief in all the gods.

Atheism is a belief "without God." So step up to the microphone.

Just above you identified that I don't believe. Now you trying to sneak a belief in. You have tricked yourself it seems.

What is your alternative belief, Clown?

When it comes to the gods, I'm currently withholding belief in any of them. I think a God/afterlife idea could be neat though and I think I would personally prefer it to non existence.

As to what I believe though, I believe many Christian churches display cult behavior, where they tell their members what to think, to expect persecution (or your doing it wrong) and that there are groups out their united against their true beliefs in order to create an Us vs Them mentality. Do you believe this could be possible?

Here's another example that shows the truth of my words:
When it comes to String Theory and Inter-universal Teichmüller Theory, you may currently lack belief in either, possibly due to a lack of information or understanding. This is NOT the same as you saying that either theory is false or believing that they are false. Do you agree?
Does removing the emotional baggage that often times comes with religious beliefs help? Surely you see how it easy it would be for someone to withhold belief in String Theory without having to believe that it is false? Religions are no different, outside of the emotions that often come with religious beliefs.

[Clownboat]

Nice try. A swing and a miss (to continue with the baseball analogies).

What do YOU believe, @clownboat ?

We are adults here. You can't just say swing and a miss in debate.
Try quoting the words that you think are misses and then show all the readers why they are misses. At that point I'll need to amend my thinking.

I got to my beliefs in the previous reply. If you had something specific, feel free to ask and I'll respond when able.

[Mr E]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #78]

As to what I believe though, I believe many Christian churches display cult behavior, where they tell their members what to think, to expect persecution (or your doing it wrong) and that there are groups out their united against their true beliefs in order to create an Us vs Them mentality.

As to what you believe..... what do you believe?

You belong to an ill-defined athiestic cult.

When it comes to the gods, I'm currently withholding belief in any of them. I think a God/afterlife idea could be neat though and I think I would personally prefer it to non existence.

Cowardly.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #60]

It's a slipping of the mask.

Atheists hide behind their personal definitions of atheism-- which purely defined is simply "without God."

They'd much rather say something like-- 'It's not an active disbelief, it's a lack of belief.' How bold.

But for clarity:
The theist affirms the statement, “There is a God.”
The agnostic says, “I do not know if God exists” or “You cannot know God exists.”
The atheist affirms the statement, “There is no God.”

These are all beliefs.

How does the statement, "I do not know if a god exists," qualify as a belief?