Soteriology: Collectivism vs. Individualism

[theleftone]

I have been studying Korean culture for the past few months, and came to an interesting question.

Question for debate: Can faith be collective and/or individual?

[Goat]

You also have to take into account that the Christian concept of 'salvation' differs from the Jewish concept. The Messiah is often seen in the Jewish tradition as a political saviour - someone who will lead Judea out of persecution and into a golden age - whereas what Jesus was to the early Christians was something a little less political and more (I want to say 'spiritual', but that's a bad term since the Jewish concept of the Messiah was spiritual as well. 'Abstract', perhaps?). It was the difference between saving a nation and saving a soul (which, perhaps, is the question this thread is all about).

It might also have something to do with the debate within Judaism whether or not there was an afterlife. If there was no afterlife, the salvation of the nation could be considered the highest good - it was ensuring a good life for oneself and all of one's descendants.

I would say that the Jewish concept was a human figure for this life, while the christian concept is a divine figure who leads people into the afterlife.

[Cathar1950]

I guess you can fine anything you like in the scriptures.
It is kind of like Alice's restaurant.

Woody Guthrie IS DA MAN!

During the brief independence of Judea during the second century BCE you start seeing more individual salvation as in the resurrection of the dead yet still the Messiah was to save Israel as a group and judge the nations.

You also have to take into account that the Christian concept of 'salvation' differs from the Jewish concept. The Messiah is often seen in the Jewish tradition as a political saviour - someone who will lead Judea out of persecution and into a golden age - whereas what Jesus was to the early Christians was something a little less political and more (I want to say 'spiritual', but that's a bad term since the Jewish concept of the Messiah was spiritual as well. 'Abstract', perhaps?). It was the difference between saving a nation and saving a soul (which, perhaps, is the question this thread is all about).

It might also have something to do with the debate within Judaism whether or not there was an afterlife. If there was no afterlife, the salvation of the nation could be considered the highest good - it was ensuring a good life for oneself and all of one's descendants.

Arlo wrote and sang that I believe, but I am a big fan of his father Woody. I went to see Sarah Lee, Arlo's daughter awhile back and she was great too.

It seems the Christian took a pagan view of salvation.
With the Mystery religions it is hard to tell them apart except they claim the OT and read it like pagans.

[MagusYanam]

Whoops! My bad, it was Arlo. He was the one that got arrested for littering and thus got exempted from the 'Nam draft - Woody by that time would have been way too old.

My folk-music fan street cred just decreased by a factor of ten. Boy is my face red.

I would say that the Jewish concept was a human figure for this life, while the christian concept is a divine figure who leads people into the afterlife.

Yes, that seems to be my interpretation as well. Personally, I think Christianity as a whole would do better if it were a little more down-to-earth.

It seems the Christian took a pagan view of salvation.
With the Mystery religions it is hard to tell them apart except they claim the OT and read it like pagans.

Ehhh... kind of hard to tell. Certainly there was a strain within Judaism that stressed the importance of life after death, but this seemed to be overshadowed by the orthodoxy such that later doctrines about the afterlife were a bit jumbled. Certainly it was not the most important point of classical Judaism. And I won't deny that the early Christian converts did borrow quite a bit from other more Gnostic traditions. Even so, the lines one can trace between the schools of thought for the time are not as clear-cut as all that.