If.....

[Athetotheist]

If human DNA shows that Native Americans are not descended from Semites,

.....and if that disproves the Book of Mormon,

.....and if Semites are supposed to be descended from Noah,

.....how does human DNA disprove the Book of Mormon without disproving the book of Genesis as well?

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #9]

Forcing a distinction between fact and theory is not an attack on anything apart from rebuking misrepresentations of truth.

Theories are built on facts.

Marke: Speculations, assumptions, conclusions, theories and the like may be founded on facts but debatable opinions based on facts are not irrefutable proofs that opinions are facts that allow no room for debate.

[A Freeman]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #5]

Shem/Sem was one of Noah's three sons, from whom the Semites were descended.

Then Semites would still be descended from Noah, and Native Americans wouldn't.

???

The ONLY people that could be considered "Semites" would be descended from Shem/Sem. Anyone who was descended from Japheth or Ham would very obviously NOT be Semites, even though Japheth and Ham were likewise descended from Noah.

In other words, all Semites are descended from Noah, but not all of Noah's descendants are Semites. Iin fact, two-thirds of Noah's descendants are NOT Semites, so there are twice as many non-Semites as there are Semites. This latter group would include the overwhelming majority of people today who say they are "Jews" even though, by their own admission, over 95% of them admit to being Ashkenazis (descendants Ashkenaz, through Gomer, one of the sons of Japheth).

So not only do you not know what you're talking about with regard to what a Semite is, but your basic premise is very obviously flawed as well (i.e. a non-sequitur logical fallacy).

[A Freeman]

For those who may not know, the "Book of Mormon" and ALL of the other books written by organized religions (e.g. the Talmud, Catechism, Hadith, etc.) are expressly condemned in the Bible (e.g. Deut. 4:2; 12:8, 12:32) under pain of death (Deut. 17:11-13). A condemnation which is likewise confirmed in the Koran/Quran (Sura 5:4).

This is why there are doctrines, traditions and superstitions associated with each of the thousands of sects, cults, denominations, etc. of ALL organized religion, found in their fabricated texts, which very obviously contradict Scripture (the Old Covenant/Testament, New Covenant/Testament and the Koran/Quran).

So attempting to discredit the Bible, by trying to associate it with the errant views from books that are specifically and repeatedly condemned throughout Scripture, is a fool's errand.

[A Freeman]

On topic, concerning the descendants of Noah, please see:

The Scriptural Marks of True Israel

Them Which Say They are Jews But Are NOT

[Difflugia]

If human DNA shows that Native Americans are not descended from Semites,

.....and if that disproves the Book of Mormon,

.....and if Semites are supposed to be descended from Noah,

.....how does human DNA disprove the Book of Mormon without disproving the book of Genesis as well?

Where would one obtain a DNA sample from Noah, or from Noah's sons, to be able to make such a comparative analysis?

You have a somewhat naive idea of how modern genetic studies work.

A detailed study from 2017 showed that populations that should be genetically distinct according to the Bible are, instead, all descended from the same original population: Haber, et al, "Continuity and Admixture in the Last Five Millennia of Levantine History from Ancient Canaanite and Present-Day Lebanese Genome Sequences", AJHG, Volume 101, Issue 2, 274 - 282.

The two most important statements to this discussion:

• "This suggests that people from the highly differentiated urban culture on the Levant coast and inland people with different modes of subsistence were nevertheless genetically similar, supporting previous reports that the different cultural groups who inhabited the Levant during the Bronze Age, such as the Ammonites, Moabites, Israelites, and Phoenicians, each achieved their own cultural identities but all shared a common genetic and ethnic root with Canaanites."
• "We computed the statistic f4 and found that populations from the Caucasus and ancient Iran shared more alleles with Sidon_BA than with Neolithic Levant ."

This puts the Bible between a rock and a hard place. According to the Genesis 10, the three main cultural and genetic branches of humanity are:

• Descendants of Shem: Israelites, Ammon, Moabites, Edomites, Ishmaelites
• Descendants of Ham: Canaanites, Mizraim (Northern Africa), Cushites (Southern Africa)
• Descendants of Japheth: the ones that are identifiable (Ashkenaz, Tarshish, Rodanim/Dodanim) are European.

The study shows that Middle Eastern populations are genetically similar amongst themselves, but identifiably different from populations originating in the Caucasus mountains. That means that the biblical "Table of Nations" cannot be correct. Either human beings would be homogeneous enough that distinct populations cannot be distinguished or Semites and Canaanites should be different enough that they can be. This eliminates apologetic excuses from both ends.

[A Freeman]

The following excerpt is from:

Them Which Say They Are Jews But Are NOT

The Science of Pretending to be “Jewish”

For any who may be under the mistaken impression that there is now DNA “evidence” linking the vast majority of the current occupiers of the LAND of Israel to the Biblical descendants of the House of Judah (which does NOT include the 10 “lost” tribes of the House of Israel), please consider the following:-

There is NO DNA evidence linking the Ashkenazis to the Biblical descendants of the House of Judah (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) nor is there any DNA evidence linking the Ashkenazi to Noah’s second son Shem/Sem.

Zero. Zip. Nada. NONE.

How can we be absolutely certain this is true? Because there is no DNA from either Shem/Sem, Judah or Benjamin available to compare with present-day samples. Testing one group of people and saying their DNA is similar to another group of people tells us NOTHING. There simply is no control specimen and no original DNA samples to use as a basis for any HONEST scientific evaluation.

Besides, Talmudic Judaism is an ORGANIZED RELIGION (John 8:30-38, Sura 2:140) that has accepted converts for twenty-six centuries, including three mass conversions, as its history clearly indicates.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, lawyers and politicians, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one convert, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell-fire than yourselves.

Again, according to the standard Jewish Encyclopaedia, it’s likely 95% of the Jews today are NOT Semites. And as for the patently absurd claim that Ashkenazis were named after the land they occupied instead of the FACT it was the other way around, the evidence that the “land of Ashkenaz” was named after its Ashkenazi inhabitants comes as a direct admission from the Ashkenazis themselves:



Map of the World from the Jewish Virtual Library

It should also be pointed out that it would be against The Law (Torah) for REAL Jews (those actually descended from the House of Judah – the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) to adopt a non-Jewish, non-Semitic, non-Israelite designation. The Law forbids even marrying outside the 12 tribes, so the notion of their intentional adoption of a foreign lineage is as impossible as it is ludicrous.

However, even if one was inclined to look at the available DNA evidence, with an open-mind (i.e. without any preconceived and incorrect notions), it too clearly indicates an Eastern European/Khazarian connection.



Genetic Research Confirms Koestler’s “Khazar” Theory by Ted Pike

See also – Ashkenazic Jews’ mysterious origins unravelled by scientists thanks to ancient DNA.

Further, what we are seeing today, with both true Israel and with the counterfeit Jewish state in the Middle East, has all been prophesied in Scripture, which is NEVER wrong. This Jewish conspiracy with its FAKE Jews and FAKE News has been going on for 2600 years (Jer. 11:9, Ezek. 22:25). When will the REAL people Israel stand-up and say “enough is enough”?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #16]

There is NO DNA evidence linking the Ashkenazis to the Biblical descendants of the House of Judah (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) nor is there any DNA evidence linking the Ashkenazi to Noah’s second son Shem/Sem.

Zero. Zip. Nada. NONE.

How can we be absolutely certain this is true? Because there is no DNA from either Shem/Sem, Judah or Benjamin available to compare with present-day samples.

So you're arguing ad ignorantiam.

Koestler [himself a Jew] said that in about the 8th century AD the Khazars, a nation living in Central Urasia, converted to Judaism. They migrated to Poland and created the eastern European or "Ashkenazim" branch of Jewry.

How would that bear on the peoples inhabiting the Americas thousands of years earlier?


But let's suppose that the absence of Semitic DNA from Indigenous Americans proves nothing. That would just leave you with one less argument against Mormonism.

[Difflugia]

Testing one group of people and saying their DNA is similar to another group of people tells us NOTHING. There simply is no control specimen and no original DNA samples to use as a basis for any HONEST scientific evaluation.

This is both a misrepresentation of the scientific data and false on its face. The paper that I linked to includes data from twenty-seven different populations of people and uses a chimpanzee as an outgroup (a "control" in genetic studies). You can stubbornly disagree with the results if you want, but then it's up to you to explain what caused the obvious pattern of descent if not actual descent. If you insist that the data tell us NOTHING, then you'll have to convincingly (and scientifically) explain away the otherwise very robust SOMETHING.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, lawyers and politicians, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one convert, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell-fire than yourselves.

That sounds to me like Matthew is addressing modern Christian apologists.

And as for the patently absurd claim that Ashkenazis were named after the land they occupied instead of the FACT it was the other way around, the evidence that the “land of Ashkenaz” was named after its Ashkenazi inhabitants comes as a direct admission from the Ashkenazis themselves:

My statement had nothing to do with modern Ashkenazi Jews, but with Ashkenaz being one of the sons of Japheth and referring to a region populated by those broadly considered European. Turks would be considered Anatolian rather than Caucasian, but so are the Greeks, leaving us firmly with a broad "European" basis for the descendants of Japheth.

Scripture, which is NEVER wrong.

Except when it is, like the Table of Nations.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #11]

Speculations, assumptions, conclusions, theories and the like may be founded on facts but debatable opinions based on facts are not irrefutable proofs that opinions are facts that allow no room for debate.

True enough, but statements of faith also leave room for debate.

[A Freeman]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #5]

Shem/Sem was one of Noah's three sons, from whom the Semites were descended.

Then Semites would still be descended from Noah, and Native Americans wouldn't.

Nope. You're wrong again. You either didn't correctly read what was shared from Genesis 10:1-3, or you didn't understand it.

Everyone in the world, including both the Semites AND the Native Americans, would be descended from Noah, via his three sons: Shem, Japheth and Ham.

Semites would be exclusively descended from Noah's son Shem/Sem (including the Hebrews, descended from Eber).

Everyone else would either be descended from Japheth or from Ham (Ham's line not shown in the illustration below).