Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity Part 1

[SiNcE_1985]

.

No excuses, Jesus is God.

We are gonna deal with these Trinity-Proof texts, one by one....using Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) own New World's Translation, while I use the New King James Version (NKJV)...and we are gonna expose their faulty NWT, as needed.

For this thread, we will examine the following three books and verses..

Isa 40:3 – Mark 1:1-8 – Malachi 3:1

Lets begin with Isa 40:3..

Isa 40:3
NKJV Isa 40:3 ”The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
NWT Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God.

Now, as you can see, in comparison, both the NKJV and the NWT reads the same.

It is commanded that a clear path is made for God (Lord, Jehovah), because he is coming through!!

Ok, now, lets look at Malachi 3:1..

NKJV Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the Lord of hosts.

NWT Mal 3:1  “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.

Virtually the same message, the Lord is coming...and the path is being cleared for him.

The significance? This is a prophecy of the coming of Jesus....and this messenger who clears the path for him, is John the Baptist.

How do we know?

Because, in Mark 1:1-8...

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in [a]the Prophets:

“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
3 “The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The implication is simple, Jesus is God.

Even in JW's own NWT Bible, it is said that the path (Isa 40:3) is being made clear for Jehovah/God.

The author of Mark connects the subject of the cleared path in the book of Isaiah (who is identified as Jehovah/God), to the subject of the path in his own book (who is identified as Jesus).

This is irrefutable evidence of the fact that; Jesus is God.

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

[Capbook]

When someone asks for evidence but then dismisses it without actually engaging with it, this behavior is often referred to as:

1. Confirmation Bias: They only accept evidence that confirms their existing beliefs and reject anything that challenges them, often without serious consideration.

Argument based on personal incredulity, hard to believe and understand, what simple honest logical answer to why Jesus as "Son of God, as His Father is God, is He God or not. A cat bears cat, a dog bears dog and so on.

Because Capbook holds to the Trinity they cannot receive a truth from the Bible which contradicts that belief

2. Cognitive Dissonance Avoidance: The discomfort of holding conflicting views leads them to reject evidence without truly processing it. Hebrews 5:7-10 holds no truth for Capbook because if accepted Jesus cannot be God so avoidance is their only option.

Cannot also address, Jesus in the "form of a servant" is He man or not?" And why Jesus "in the form of God" cannot be honestly answer basing the same logic with the first.

3. Bad Faith Argumentation: Capbook isn't genuinely seeking truth; they asked for evidence to appear open-minded but had no intention of considering it.

Your quoted verses were from paraphrase translation that made your interpretation far from the truth. Does not even know the definition of "redeem".

4. Moving the Goalposts: They ask for evidence, and when it's provided, they change the criteria or simply ignore it.

I think I can turn the table.

5. Dismissive Evasion: A general term for avoiding the implications of presented evidence by brushing it off without rebuttal.

I will number the evasions;
1. Did not address Jesus as "Son of God", why the honest answer on my first premise cannot be applied?
2. Jesus as in "form of God", why the honest answer to "in the of of a servant" cannot be applied to the second premise.
3. Face2face argument about:
a)Jesus as man - many and us held that belief maybe before the existence of JWs church,
b) One God - many and us already held that belief maybe before JWs church exist,
c) This is the evasion, what you have to prove here is to find a single verse that says "Jesus is not God?" never addressed and changed the topic.

Capbook has demonstrated all 5 of these terrible qualities in this discussion
F2F

This will be the 4th if not addressed, post your evidence even a single verse that say "Jesus needs salvation".

Misinterpretation usually happened when we based our beliefs on paraphrase translations, it could misled many.
Because thought for thought translations change Bible words which definition cannot be look upon through Bible lexicons.

There is nothing in this response but smoke and mirrors.

You failed in using Hebrews 1 and Romans 1 you could not provide any interpretation.

Not once have you dealt with Hebrews 5:7 or Romans 6:9!

In every reply you have failed to acknowledge the correct context which is a serious misjudgment on your part.

Are we to replicate this "lack" on your part with every piece of evidence which reveals Jesus is not God?

F2F

I believe you did not answer my question in Heb 1. Do you believe the words of the Father Himself in Heb 1:8-9, as truth?

How many times do I'm required to answer though being answered in my previous post about Heb 5:7?
I believe you are not reading my responses. The verse speaks about the scenario of Jesus to undergo the prophesied sacrifice.

Ok, can you answer this question, do Jesus' prayers and supplication saved Him from death? Yes or no?

About Rom 6:9, Yes Jesus will not die again, because once and for all, His shed blood is eternal for the remission of our sins in faith. This supports my point, and proves your misinterpretation of Heb 9:12.

This is from your paraphrase translation of Heb 9:12 below, your Post#172;

"h (Jesus) entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:12"

And below is from the word for word Bible translation that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original Greek.

Heb 9:12 And not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASB

This continuing phrase state the correct message, "He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption," re-arranging it will cause misinterpretation. Eternal redemption, the entrance of our Redeemer, once for all, secures eternal redemption for us, whereas the Jewish high priest's entrance was repeated year by year, and the effect is temporary. The redemption price which should stand good forever, and an endless redemption from sin, in reference to the pardon of which and our reconciliation to God, there needs no other sacrifice, Jesus shed blood is eternal in its merit and efficacy.

[servant1]

[Replying to Capbook in post #9]

The only begotten god is correct, not the way translation has 1:18

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #9]

The only begotten god is correct, not the way translation has 1:18

Now, it seems you abandon your argument about the Tetragrammaton vs the Latinized used by your church?

This, I believe you were taught how to differentiate "θεος" to "Θεοῦ". Can you teach us?

[servant1]

[Replying to Capbook in post #193]

The Greek word for God= Theos, The true God is called Theos in most spots in the NT-why? Because all know its speaking of the true God. BUT when 2 are being called God and god in the same paragraph=John 1:1-2Cor 4:4- Ton Theon= God-Theos= god. Its why they are called 2 different Greek words.

[face2face]

When someone asks for evidence but then dismisses it without actually engaging with it, this behavior is often referred to as:

1. Confirmation Bias: They only accept evidence that confirms their existing beliefs and reject anything that challenges them, often without serious consideration.

Argument based on personal incredulity, hard to believe and understand, what simple honest logical answer to why Jesus as "Son of God, as His Father is God, is He God or not. A cat bears cat, a dog bears dog and so on.

Because Capbook holds to the Trinity they cannot receive a truth from the Bible which contradicts that belief

2. Cognitive Dissonance Avoidance: The discomfort of holding conflicting views leads them to reject evidence without truly processing it. Hebrews 5:7-10 holds no truth for Capbook because if accepted Jesus cannot be God so avoidance is their only option.

Cannot also address, Jesus in the "form of a servant" is He man or not?" And why Jesus "in the form of God" cannot be honestly answer basing the same logic with the first.

3. Bad Faith Argumentation: Capbook isn't genuinely seeking truth; they asked for evidence to appear open-minded but had no intention of considering it.

Your quoted verses were from paraphrase translation that made your interpretation far from the truth. Does not even know the definition of "redeem".

4. Moving the Goalposts: They ask for evidence, and when it's provided, they change the criteria or simply ignore it.

I think I can turn the table.

5. Dismissive Evasion: A general term for avoiding the implications of presented evidence by brushing it off without rebuttal.

I will number the evasions;
1. Did not address Jesus as "Son of God", why the honest answer on my first premise cannot be applied?
2. Jesus as in "form of God", why the honest answer to "in the of of a servant" cannot be applied to the second premise.
3. Face2face argument about:
a)Jesus as man - many and us held that belief maybe before the existence of JWs church,
b) One God - many and us already held that belief maybe before JWs church exist,
c) This is the evasion, what you have to prove here is to find a single verse that says "Jesus is not God?" never addressed and changed the topic.

Capbook has demonstrated all 5 of these terrible qualities in this discussion
F2F

This will be the 4th if not addressed, post your evidence even a single verse that say "Jesus needs salvation".

Misinterpretation usually happened when we based our beliefs on paraphrase translations, it could misled many.
Because thought for thought translations change Bible words which definition cannot be look upon through Bible lexicons.

There is nothing in this response but smoke and mirrors.

You failed in using Hebrews 1 and Romans 1 you could not provide any interpretation.

Not once have you dealt with Hebrews 5:7 or Romans 6:9!

In every reply you have failed to acknowledge the correct context which is a serious misjudgment on your part.

Are we to replicate this "lack" on your part with every piece of evidence which reveals Jesus is not God?

F2F

I believe you did not answer my question in Heb 1. Do you believe the words of the Father Himself in Heb 1:8-9, as truth?

How many times do I'm required to answer though being answered in my previous post about Heb 5:7?
I believe you are not reading my responses. The verse speaks about the scenario of Jesus to undergo the prophesied sacrifice.

Ok, can you answer this question, do Jesus' prayers and supplication saved Him from death? Yes or no?

About Rom 6:9, Yes Jesus will not die again, because once and for all, His shed blood is eternal for the remission of our sins in faith. This supports my point, and proves your misinterpretation of Heb 9:12.

This is from your paraphrase translation of Heb 9:12 below, your Post#172;

"h (Jesus) entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:12"

And below is from the word for word Bible translation that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original Greek.

Heb 9:12 And not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASB

This continuing phrase state the correct message, "He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption," re-arranging it will cause misinterpretation. Eternal redemption, the entrance of our Redeemer, once for all, secures eternal redemption for us, whereas the Jewish high priest's entrance was repeated year by year, and the effect is temporary. The redemption price which should stand good forever, and an endless redemption from sin, in reference to the pardon of which and our reconciliation to God, there needs no other sacrifice, Jesus shed blood is eternal in its merit and efficacy.

You know it's weird watching you dodge and weave around these verses as though you are uncomfortable with their meaning.

Re Heb 1:8,9 we have been over this before and you rejected the truth the first time!

Therefore God, your God in verse 9 shows that Jesus is subject to God, which challenges the idea that he is the 'Eternal Son.' If the Father is described as the God of Jesus, then Jesus cannot be fully God in the same way the Father is. This is also supported by John 20:17, where Jesus refers to the Father as 'my God.

You don't have the Trinity formula in the Bible at all - give it up!

And then you ask this foolish question! "Ok, can you answer this question, do Jesus' prayers and supplication saved him from death? Yes or no?"

No, Jesus’ prayers were not a masquerade as you would have them! They were genuine expressions of his humanity and relationship with the Father, otherwise it was all a hoax.

And yes, Jesus entered once (1) into the Holy Place having never been there previously! He died to sin once, he was raised once! He was the firstborn from the dead which is why you are having so many issues with Pauls Gospel in Romans 1 "And (Jesus was) declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"

So I ask you again - in who else can salvation be found, if as you say Jesus did not need saving AND did not receive eternal redemption in himself.

You can't run from this Capbook having tried many times!

F2F

[face2face]

Heb 9:12 And not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASB

This continuing phrase state the correct message, "He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption," re-arranging it will cause misinterpretation. Eternal redemption, the entrance of our Redeemer, once for all, secures eternal redemption for us, whereas the Jewish high priest's entrance was repeated year by year, and the effect is temporary. The redemption price which should stand good forever, and an endless redemption from sin, in reference to the pardon of which and our reconciliation to God, there needs no other sacrifice, Jesus shed blood is eternal in its merit and efficacy.

If you remove the eternal redemption from Jesus which is what you are endeavouring to achieve there is a number of things you must know.

1. Jesus cannot be the firstborn from the dead Colossians 1:18
2. Jesus cannot be the firstfruits of them that sleep 1 Corinthians 15:20
3. Jesus did not truly completely die therefore the ransom was not paid Revelation 1:18

"I was dead, and now I am alive" Revelation 1:18

Can you explain the difference between being dead and being alive - I assume your understanding is "being dead" still means being alive, which is why you cannot understand how Christ received "eternal redemption" in himself, or make sense of points 1-3.

Now let's move past the Trinity for a moment and make sense of this verse:

"For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God." Romans 6:10

So, let's assume your notion that death is not death - which means the wages of sin does not carry the decree of death! Your understanding of sin and God's Divine decree must also be amiss.

If Jesus died to sin - how did he die to sin? and why only once?
How was sin represented in his body?

1 Peter 2:24 "Who (Jesus) his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."\

So how "in" Jesus' body were your sins represented?

And if Christ died to sin once in Romans 6:10 and we die to sin as well explain how Jesus can now release those from the slavery of sin?

How is salvation found in Christ?...if he was not saved from the wages of sin in his own body?

You will never understand while you are holding onto the trinity!

F2F

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #193]

The Greek word for God= Theos, The true God is called Theos in most spots in the NT-why? Because all know its speaking of the true God. BUT when 2 are being called God and god in the same paragraph=John 1:1-2Cor 4:4- Ton Theon= God-Theos= god. Its why they are called 2 different Greek words.

You can check 1 John 5:20 below, I colored red the two are there. The "theos θεος " as "a god" to you is the one referred as the true God and eternal life. To follow your explanation, this proves that Jesus is the true God and eternal life in this contested text by Arians. I believe your explanation comes from the GB of your church, as I encounter another JW that explains the same.

1Jn 5:20 οιδαμεν δε G1492 G1161  οτι G3754  ο G3588  υιος G5207  του G3588  θεου G2316  ηκει G2240  και G2532  δεδωκεν G1325  ημιν G1473  διανοιαν G1271  ινα G2443  γινωσκωμεν G1097  τον G3588  αληθινον G228  και G2532  εσμεν G1510.2.4  εν G1722  τω G3588  αληθινω G228  εν G1722  τω G3588  υιω αυτου G5207 G1473  Ιησου G*  χριστω G5547  ουτος G3778  εστιν G1510.2.3  ο G3588  αληθινος G228  θεος G2316  και G2532  η G3588  ζωη G2222  αιωνιος G166 

[Capbook]

You know it's weird watching you dodge and weave around these verses as though you are uncomfortable with their meaning.

Meaning? Says the one that I noticed never consult Bible lexicons, because I believe were not taught to.

Re Heb 1:8,9 we have been over this before and you rejected the truth the first time!

I believe all JWs many times.

Therefore God, your God in verse 9 shows that Jesus is subject to God, which challenges the idea that he is the 'Eternal Son.' If the Father is described as the God of Jesus, then Jesus cannot be fully God in the same way the Father is. This is also supported by John 20:17, where Jesus refers to the Father as 'my God.

I believe JW are blind enough not to see the first mentioned "God". Maybe we have eyes but cannot see. There are two word "God" in that verse, the first that JW cannot see refer to Jesus, and the second one, "your God" refer to the Father.

You don't have the Trinity formula in the Bible at all - give it up!

Not yet, I'm just going to prove here first Jesus Godship.

And then you ask this foolish question! "Ok, can you answer this question, do Jesus' prayers and supplication saved him from death? Yes or no?"

No, Jesus’ prayers were not a masquerade as you would have them! They were genuine expressions of his humanity and relationship with the Father, otherwise it was all a hoax.

That was a prophesied sacrifice, just because of Jesus human limitations that He prayed to the Father but know that it will not be granted because it will be the fulfillment of the prophesy.
The human fear Jesus felt makes your church a doctrine out of it?

And yes, Jesus entered once (1) into the Holy Place having never been there previously! He died to sin once, he was raised once! He was the firstborn from the dead which is why you are having so many issues with Pauls Gospel in Romans 1 "And (Jesus was) declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"

So I ask you again - in who else can salvation be found, if as you say Jesus did not need saving AND did not receive eternal redemption in himself.

I believe I already have posted it. This was on my post#180, I might think you're not reading my responses just ready to react without understanding. I'll repost this again for your ready reference;

1 Thess 5:9
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
NASB

2 Tim 2:10
10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
NASB

2 Tim 3:15-16
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NASB

Acts 4:12
2 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."
NASB

You can't run from this Capbook having tried many times! F2F

I believe you can have your 100 meter dash with those Bible verses.

[face2face]

You know it's weird watching you dodge and weave around these verses as though you are uncomfortable with their meaning.

Meaning? Says the one that I noticed never consult Bible lexicons, because I believe were not taught to.

Re Heb 1:8,9 we have been over this before and you rejected the truth the first time!

I believe all JWs many times.

Therefore God, your God in verse 9 shows that Jesus is subject to God, which challenges the idea that he is the 'Eternal Son.' If the Father is described as the God of Jesus, then Jesus cannot be fully God in the same way the Father is. This is also supported by John 20:17, where Jesus refers to the Father as 'my God.

I believe JW are blind enough not to see the first mentioned "God". Maybe we have eyes but cannot see. There are two word "God" in that verse, the first that JW cannot see refer to Jesus, and the second one, "your God" refer to the Father.

You don't have the Trinity formula in the Bible at all - give it up!

Not yet, I'm just going to prove here first Jesus Godship.

And then you ask this foolish question! "Ok, can you answer this question, do Jesus' prayers and supplication saved him from death? Yes or no?"

No, Jesus’ prayers were not a masquerade as you would have them! They were genuine expressions of his humanity and relationship with the Father, otherwise it was all a hoax.

That was a prophesied sacrifice, just because of Jesus human limitations that He prayed to the Father but know that it will not be granted because it will be the fulfillment of the prophesy.
The human fear Jesus felt makes your church a doctrine out of it?

And yes, Jesus entered once (1) into the Holy Place having never been there previously! He died to sin once, he was raised once! He was the firstborn from the dead which is why you are having so many issues with Pauls Gospel in Romans 1 "And (Jesus was) declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"

So I ask you again - in who else can salvation be found, if as you say Jesus did not need saving AND did not receive eternal redemption in himself.

I believe I already have posted it. This was on my post#180, I might think you're not reading my responses just ready to react without understanding. I'll repost this again for your ready reference;

1 Thess 5:9
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
NASB

2 Tim 2:10
10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
NASB

2 Tim 3:15-16
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NASB

Acts 4:12
2 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."
NASB

You can't run from this Capbook having tried many times! F2F

I believe you can have your 100 meter dash with those Bible verses.

You deny Jesus required saving from death and yet you continue to post verses which say otherwise.

Copy and pasting only shows you are losing ground in this discussion and or running out of material to support as evidence.

F2F

[face2face]

Heb 9:12 And not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASB

This continuing phrase state the correct message, "He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption," re-arranging it will cause misinterpretation. Eternal redemption, the entrance of our Redeemer, once for all, secures eternal redemption for us, whereas the Jewish high priest's entrance was repeated year by year, and the effect is temporary. The redemption price which should stand good forever, and an endless redemption from sin, in reference to the pardon of which and our reconciliation to God, there needs no other sacrifice, Jesus shed blood is eternal in its merit and efficacy.

If you remove the eternal redemption from Jesus which is what you are endeavouring to achieve there is a number of things you must know.

1. Jesus cannot be the firstborn from the dead Colossians 1:18
2. Jesus cannot be the firstfruits of them that sleep 1 Corinthians 15:20
3. Jesus did not truly completely die therefore the ransom was not paid Revelation 1:18

"I was dead, and now I am alive" Revelation 1:18

Can you explain the difference between being dead and being alive - I assume your understanding is "being dead" still means being alive, which is why you cannot understand how Christ received "eternal redemption" in himself, or make sense of points 1-3.

Now let's move past the Trinity for a moment and make sense of this verse:

"For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God." Romans 6:10

So, let's assume your notion that death is not death - which means the wages of sin does not carry the decree of death! Your understanding of sin and God's Divine decree must also be amiss.

If Jesus died to sin - how did he die to sin? and why only once?
How was sin represented in his body?

1 Peter 2:24 "Who (Jesus) his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."\

So how "in" Jesus' body were your sins represented?

And if Christ died to sin once in Romans 6:10 and we die to sin as well explain how Jesus can now release those from the slavery of sin?

How is salvation found in Christ?...if he was not saved from the wages of sin in his own body?

You will never understand while you are holding onto the trinity!

F2F

1 Peter 2:24 - Romans 6:10 - Rev 1:18

All passages Trinitarians cannot interpret!

F2F