Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity Part 1

[SiNcE_1985]

.

No excuses, Jesus is God.

We are gonna deal with these Trinity-Proof texts, one by one....using Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) own New World's Translation, while I use the New King James Version (NKJV)...and we are gonna expose their faulty NWT, as needed.

For this thread, we will examine the following three books and verses..

Isa 40:3 – Mark 1:1-8 – Malachi 3:1

Lets begin with Isa 40:3..

Isa 40:3
NKJV Isa 40:3 ”The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
NWT Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God.

Now, as you can see, in comparison, both the NKJV and the NWT reads the same.

It is commanded that a clear path is made for God (Lord, Jehovah), because he is coming through!!

Ok, now, lets look at Malachi 3:1..

NKJV Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the Lord of hosts.

NWT Mal 3:1  “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.

Virtually the same message, the Lord is coming...and the path is being cleared for him.

The significance? This is a prophecy of the coming of Jesus....and this messenger who clears the path for him, is John the Baptist.

How do we know?

Because, in Mark 1:1-8...

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in [a]the Prophets:

“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
3 “The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The implication is simple, Jesus is God.

Even in JW's own NWT Bible, it is said that the path (Isa 40:3) is being made clear for Jehovah/God.

The author of Mark connects the subject of the cleared path in the book of Isaiah (who is identified as Jehovah/God), to the subject of the path in his own book (who is identified as Jesus).

This is irrefutable evidence of the fact that; Jesus is God.

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

[face2face]

Now, I know, again you quote this text from paraphrase translation. It would misled you. It is not Jesus that need redemption. It is the redemption of man attributed to the blood of Christ. Having obtained eternal redemption for us, that is, by the shedding of His blood. On the meaning of the word "redemption," see Gal 3:13. The redemption which the Lord Jesus effected for His people is eternal. Read and analyze the verses below;

Heb 9:12
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASB
Gal 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"
NASB

Jesus secures eternal redemption for us. See Heb 9:12 and Gal 3:13 above.

We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, read my posted verses from word for word translation.

I am sorry you are really misled.

I am really sorry that is eisegesis.

Where is the verse that says, "Jesus is not God?"

I learned to know your eisegesis.

How far it is to the truth. It is us are to be saved not Jesus, He is from heaven, from eternity. (Micah 5:2)

You are in a spot of bother Capbook.

You acknowledge that Jesus was human, though not fully human. You recognize that he needed God???, yet you believe he didn’t need saving. You accept that he obtained eternal redemption, but not for himself.

You believe God cannot be cursed—yet Scripture says Jesus was cursed when he hung on the tree. I could say more, but the truth is, the Lord Jesus Christ you believe in is not the one revealed in Scripture.

It was you who said "God does not need redeeming" and yet you can clearly see the Lord did!

By way of avoiding the answer all you could provide was "I am sorry you are really misled"

Let's open this subject up some more, shall we?

Could Jesus ascend Heaven without the shedding of his blood?

Why was his blood so important to God?

Why was Jesus' blood an acceptable offering to God?

I find it interesting to see how you navigate around these well-known verses, almost as if you're encountering them for the first time.

F2f

Ok, to settle this all, I am requesting you, just one verse that says Jesus needs salvation?

Here are two very clear quotes - many more if you need them!

Jesus was held under the dominion of death

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. Romans 6:9

Jesus knew this which is why he prayed to his Father to save him from death

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him (God) who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

Capbook, your theology is grounded in human philosophy, which is why your view of Scripture is incomplete and why you continually encounter contradictions.

F2F

No, I need explicit verse that says Jesus needs salvation. On the contrary verses below will prove your eisegesis.
Have forgotten Jesus words, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.
Maybe it's your preconceived belief that made us, though we have eyes but cannot see. Below are purely from literal word for word Bible translations that aims to maintain the highest accuracy to the original Greek.

1 Thess 5:9
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
NASB

2 Tim 2:10
10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
NASB

2 Tim 3:15-16
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NASB

Acts 4:12
2 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."
NASB

Capbook, in the end, you're only hurting yourself.

If Jesus prayed with loud cries and tears to the One who could save him from death, that’s as clear and specific as it gets!
And if the apostles believed that Jesus was truly under the power of death, again—there’s no room for ambiguity.

You know what you're doing, and you know why you're doing it—but the consequences fall on you, not anyone else.

How many times did Jesus die to sin?

How many times did Jesus need saving?

How many times did Jesus enter Heaven?

How many times did Jesus taste death?

How many times did God raise His Son from the grave?

How did God break the power of death in Jesus?

Jesus is NOT God!

F2F

p.s Listing verses that show salvation is "through" Jesus only proves where salvation was first wrought ...but hey, if salvation isnt "in" Jesus, where is it?

[Capbook]

You are in a spot of bother Capbook.

You acknowledge that Jesus was human, though not fully human. You recognize that he needed God???, yet you believe he didn’t need saving. You accept that he obtained eternal redemption, but not for himself.

You believe God cannot be cursed—yet Scripture says Jesus was cursed when he hung on the tree. I could say more, but the truth is, the Lord Jesus Christ you believe in is not the one revealed in Scripture.

It was you who said "God does not need redeeming" and yet you can clearly see the Lord did!

By way of avoiding the answer all you could provide was "I am sorry you are really misled"

Let's open this subject up some more, shall we?

Your prooftext finds so lacking, it just described one scenario when Jesus was about to undergo the prophesied sacrifice.

Could Jesus ascend Heaven without the shedding of his blood?

Why was his blood so important to God?

Why was Jesus' blood an acceptable offering to God?

I find it interesting to see how you navigate around these well-known verses, almost as if you're encountering them for the first time.

F2f

Ok, to settle this all, I am requesting you, just one verse that says Jesus needs salvation?

Here are two very clear quotes - many more if you need them!

Jesus was held under the dominion of death

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. Romans 6:9

Jesus knew this which is why he prayed to his Father to save him from death

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him (God) who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

Capbook, your theology is grounded in human philosophy, which is why your view of Scripture is incomplete and why you continually encounter contradictions.

F2F

No, I need explicit verse that says Jesus needs salvation. On the contrary verses below will prove your eisegesis.
Have forgotten Jesus words, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.
Maybe it's your preconceived belief that made us, though we have eyes but cannot see. Below are purely from literal word for word Bible translations that aims to maintain the highest accuracy to the original Greek.

1 Thess 5:9
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
NASB

2 Tim 2:10
10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
NASB

2 Tim 3:15-16
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NASB

Acts 4:12
2 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."
NASB

Capbook, in the end, you're only hurting yourself.

If Jesus prayed with loud cries and tears to the One who could save him from death, that’s as clear and specific as it gets!
And if the apostles believed that Jesus was truly under the power of death, again—there’s no room for ambiguity.

You know what you're doing, and you know why you're doing it—but the consequences fall on you, not anyone else.

How many times did Jesus die to sin?

How many times did Jesus need saving?

How many times did Jesus enter Heaven?

How many times did Jesus taste death?

How many times did God raise His Son from the grave?

How did God break the power of death in Jesus?

Jesus is NOT God!

F2F

p.s Listing verses that show salvation is "through" Jesus only proves where salvation was first wrought ...but hey, if salvation isnt "in" Jesus, where is it?

Your prooftext found so lacking, it just described one scenario where Jesus had to undergo the prophesied sacrifice.
Do not side step the point. Just cite a single verse that says Jesus needs salvation.

[face2face]

Ok, to settle this all, I am requesting you, just one verse that says Jesus needs salvation?

Here are two very clear quotes - many more if you need them!

Jesus was held under the dominion of death

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. Romans 6:9

Jesus knew this which is why he prayed to his Father to save him from death

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him (God) who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

Capbook, your theology is grounded in human philosophy, which is why your view of Scripture is incomplete and why you continually encounter contradictions.

F2F

No, I need explicit verse that says Jesus needs salvation. On the contrary verses below will prove your eisegesis.
Have forgotten Jesus words, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.
Maybe it's your preconceived belief that made us, though we have eyes but cannot see. Below are purely from literal word for word Bible translations that aims to maintain the highest accuracy to the original Greek.

1 Thess 5:9
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
NASB

2 Tim 2:10
10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
NASB

2 Tim 3:15-16
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NASB

Acts 4:12
2 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."
NASB

Capbook, in the end, you're only hurting yourself.

If Jesus prayed with loud cries and tears to the One who could save him from death, that’s as clear and specific as it gets!
And if the apostles believed that Jesus was truly under the power of death, again—there’s no room for ambiguity.

You know what you're doing, and you know why you're doing it—but the consequences fall on you, not anyone else.

How many times did Jesus die to sin?

How many times did Jesus need saving?

How many times did Jesus enter Heaven?

How many times did Jesus taste death?

How many times did God raise His Son from the grave?

How did God break the power of death in Jesus?

Jesus is NOT God!

F2F

p.s Listing verses that show salvation is "through" Jesus only proves where salvation was first wrought ...but hey, if salvation isnt "in" Jesus, where is it?

Your prooftext found so lacking, it just described one scenario where Jesus had to undergo the prophesied sacrifice.
Do not side step the point. Just cite a single verse that says Jesus needs salvation.

How many times Capbook - can't you answer the questions?

If salvation is not found in Christ, where do you find it?

F2F

[face2face]

The very moment Capbook heeds the Apostles teaching on Christ being the first fruits from the dead the Trinity falls over.

Capbook's position: God does not need saving!

Apostles teaching: Christ needed to be redeemed from death

Outcome: Jesus in not God

F2F

[Capbook]

The very moment Capbook heeds the Apostles teaching on Christ being the first fruits from the dead the Trinity falls over.

Capbook's position: God does not need saving!

Apostles teaching: Christ needed to be redeemed from death

Outcome: Jesus in not God

F2F

As I've already said, you misinterpret the verses.
Why once and for all, why you cannot post even a single verse that exactly says "Jesus needs salvation?"
That's your point, isn't it? Ok, just on verse...

[face2face]

The very moment Capbook heeds the Apostles teaching on Christ being the first fruits from the dead the Trinity falls over.

Capbook's position: God does not need saving!

Apostles teaching: Christ needed to be redeemed from death

Outcome: Jesus in not God

F2F

As I've already said, you misinterpret the verses.
Why once and for all, why you cannot post even a single verse that exactly says "Jesus needs salvation?"
That's your point, isn't it? Ok, just on verse...

Do you know what it looks like when a person discounts the Word of God by saying this "you misinterpret the verses" and provides no interpretation at all to those verses?

You have zero credibility with me and those reading this thread.

Your willing ignorance is further demonstrated here:

7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek Heb 5:7–10.

Not only did Jesus need saving, not only did he pray for being saved from death, he learned things through his sufferings which made him perfect.

How can God "be made perfect?"

You have a problem now on top of a problem.

Jesus is not God

F2F

[face2face]

When someone asks for evidence but then dismisses it without actually engaging with it, this behavior is often referred to as:

1. Confirmation Bias: They only accept evidence that confirms their existing beliefs and reject anything that challenges them, often without serious consideration.

Because Capbook holds to the Trinity they cannot receive a truth from the Bible which contradicts that belief

2. Cognitive Dissonance Avoidance: The discomfort of holding conflicting views leads them to reject evidence without truly processing it. Hebrews 5:7-10 holds no truth for Capbook because if accepted Jesus cannot be God so avoidance is their only option

3. Bad Faith Argumentation: Capbook isn't genuinely seeking truth; they asked for evidence to appear open-minded but had no intention of considering it.

4. Moving the Goalposts: They ask for evidence, and when it's provided, they change the criteria or simply ignore it.

5. Dismissive Evasion: A general term for avoiding the implications of presented evidence by brushing it off without rebuttal.

Capbook has demonstrated all 5 of these terrible qualities in this discussion

F2F

[Capbook]

When someone asks for evidence but then dismisses it without actually engaging with it, this behavior is often referred to as:

1. Confirmation Bias: They only accept evidence that confirms their existing beliefs and reject anything that challenges them, often without serious consideration.

Argument based on personal incredulity, hard to believe and understand, what simple honest logical answer to why Jesus as "Son of God, as His Father is God, is He God or not. A cat bears cat, a dog bears dog and so on.

Because Capbook holds to the Trinity they cannot receive a truth from the Bible which contradicts that belief

2. Cognitive Dissonance Avoidance: The discomfort of holding conflicting views leads them to reject evidence without truly processing it. Hebrews 5:7-10 holds no truth for Capbook because if accepted Jesus cannot be God so avoidance is their only option.

Cannot also address, Jesus in the "form of a servant" is He man or not?" And why Jesus "in the form of God" cannot be honestly answer basing the same logic with the first.

3. Bad Faith Argumentation: Capbook isn't genuinely seeking truth; they asked for evidence to appear open-minded but had no intention of considering it.

Your quoted verses were from paraphrase translation that made your interpretation far from the truth. Does not even know the definition of "redeem".

4. Moving the Goalposts: They ask for evidence, and when it's provided, they change the criteria or simply ignore it.

I think I can turn the table.

5. Dismissive Evasion: A general term for avoiding the implications of presented evidence by brushing it off without rebuttal.

I will number the evasions;
1. Did not address Jesus as "Son of God", why the honest answer on my first premise cannot be applied?
2. Jesus as in "form of God", why the honest answer to "in the of of a servant" cannot be applied to the second premise.
3. Face2face argument about:
a)Jesus as man - many and us held that belief maybe before the existence of JWs church,
b) One God - many and us already held that belief maybe before JWs church exist,
c) This is the evasion, what you have to prove here is to find a single verse that says "Jesus is not God?" never addressed and changed the topic.

Capbook has demonstrated all 5 of these terrible qualities in this discussion
F2F

This will be the 4th if not addressed, post your evidence even a single verse that say "Jesus needs salvation".

Misinterpretation usually happened when we based our beliefs on paraphrase translations, it could misled many.
Because thought for thought translations change Bible words which definition cannot be look upon through Bible lexicons.

[face2face]

When someone asks for evidence but then dismisses it without actually engaging with it, this behavior is often referred to as:

1. Confirmation Bias: They only accept evidence that confirms their existing beliefs and reject anything that challenges them, often without serious consideration.

Argument based on personal incredulity, hard to believe and understand, what simple honest logical answer to why Jesus as "Son of God, as His Father is God, is He God or not. A cat bears cat, a dog bears dog and so on.

Because Capbook holds to the Trinity they cannot receive a truth from the Bible which contradicts that belief

2. Cognitive Dissonance Avoidance: The discomfort of holding conflicting views leads them to reject evidence without truly processing it. Hebrews 5:7-10 holds no truth for Capbook because if accepted Jesus cannot be God so avoidance is their only option.

Cannot also address, Jesus in the "form of a servant" is He man or not?" And why Jesus "in the form of God" cannot be honestly answer basing the same logic with the first.

3. Bad Faith Argumentation: Capbook isn't genuinely seeking truth; they asked for evidence to appear open-minded but had no intention of considering it.

Your quoted verses were from paraphrase translation that made your interpretation far from the truth. Does not even know the definition of "redeem".

4. Moving the Goalposts: They ask for evidence, and when it's provided, they change the criteria or simply ignore it.

I think I can turn the table.

5. Dismissive Evasion: A general term for avoiding the implications of presented evidence by brushing it off without rebuttal.

I will number the evasions;
1. Did not address Jesus as "Son of God", why the honest answer on my first premise cannot be applied?
2. Jesus as in "form of God", why the honest answer to "in the of of a servant" cannot be applied to the second premise.
3. Face2face argument about:
a)Jesus as man - many and us held that belief maybe before the existence of JWs church,
b) One God - many and us already held that belief maybe before JWs church exist,
c) This is the evasion, what you have to prove here is to find a single verse that says "Jesus is not God?" never addressed and changed the topic.

Capbook has demonstrated all 5 of these terrible qualities in this discussion
F2F

This will be the 4th if not addressed, post your evidence even a single verse that say "Jesus needs salvation".

Misinterpretation usually happened when we based our beliefs on paraphrase translations, it could misled many.
Because thought for thought translations change Bible words which definition cannot be look upon through Bible lexicons.

Do you know what it looks like when a person discounts the Word of God by saying this "you misinterpret the verses" and provides no interpretation at all to those verses?

You have zero credibility with me and those reading this thread.

Your willing ignorance is further demonstrated here:

7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek Heb 5:7–10.

Not only did Jesus need saving, not only did he pray for being saved from death, he learned things through his sufferings which made him perfect.

How can God "be made perfect?"

You have a problem now on top of a problem.

Jesus is not God

F2F

[face2face]

When someone asks for evidence but then dismisses it without actually engaging with it, this behavior is often referred to as:

1. Confirmation Bias: They only accept evidence that confirms their existing beliefs and reject anything that challenges them, often without serious consideration.

Argument based on personal incredulity, hard to believe and understand, what simple honest logical answer to why Jesus as "Son of God, as His Father is God, is He God or not. A cat bears cat, a dog bears dog and so on.

Because Capbook holds to the Trinity they cannot receive a truth from the Bible which contradicts that belief

2. Cognitive Dissonance Avoidance: The discomfort of holding conflicting views leads them to reject evidence without truly processing it. Hebrews 5:7-10 holds no truth for Capbook because if accepted Jesus cannot be God so avoidance is their only option.

Cannot also address, Jesus in the "form of a servant" is He man or not?" And why Jesus "in the form of God" cannot be honestly answer basing the same logic with the first.

3. Bad Faith Argumentation: Capbook isn't genuinely seeking truth; they asked for evidence to appear open-minded but had no intention of considering it.

Your quoted verses were from paraphrase translation that made your interpretation far from the truth. Does not even know the definition of "redeem".

4. Moving the Goalposts: They ask for evidence, and when it's provided, they change the criteria or simply ignore it.

I think I can turn the table.

5. Dismissive Evasion: A general term for avoiding the implications of presented evidence by brushing it off without rebuttal.

I will number the evasions;
1. Did not address Jesus as "Son of God", why the honest answer on my first premise cannot be applied?
2. Jesus as in "form of God", why the honest answer to "in the of of a servant" cannot be applied to the second premise.
3. Face2face argument about:
a)Jesus as man - many and us held that belief maybe before the existence of JWs church,
b) One God - many and us already held that belief maybe before JWs church exist,
c) This is the evasion, what you have to prove here is to find a single verse that says "Jesus is not God?" never addressed and changed the topic.

Capbook has demonstrated all 5 of these terrible qualities in this discussion
F2F

This will be the 4th if not addressed, post your evidence even a single verse that say "Jesus needs salvation".

Misinterpretation usually happened when we based our beliefs on paraphrase translations, it could misled many.
Because thought for thought translations change Bible words which definition cannot be look upon through Bible lexicons.

There is nothing in this response but smoke and mirrors.

You failed in using Hebrews 1 and Romans 1 you could not provide any interpretation.

Not once have you dealt with Hebrews 5:7 or Romans 6:9!

In every reply you have failed to acknowledge the correct context which is a serious misjudgment on your part.

Are we to replicate this "lack" on your part with every piece of evidence which reveals Jesus is not God?

F2F