The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[marke]

The fact that there is no evidence to support myths and the fact that there remains little or no evidence to support historical events of 4,000 years ago does not disprove the Bible.

Have you watched the video from post 12? The hot/dry desert has preserved tons of evidence to support the claims of the ancient Egyptians -- (from 4,000 years ago). We would also know if the ancient Egyptians tried to erase any evidence for the ancient Israelites, as they left evidence of trying to erase evidence of all sorts of embarrassing things. The claims from the Bible are just too large to leave nothing at all. We also have evidence of myth, as the Bible claims their destination was in the promised land, which we know is false, as this area was STILL occupied by the Egyptians This would be about as silly as stating that during WW2, some Jews escaped their concentration camp and sought refuge in Auschwitz Germany.

Hence, all you are producing here, are very weak excuses as to why there is no evidence to support the claims that 2 million (plus) Israelites were enslaved for centuries.

Marke: Those who 'know' the Bible is false are deluded.

[otseng]

Yes, the 'Hyksos' were in Egypt. But number are numbers. The number alone raises great concern for your wanted, needed, and down-right necessary 'Exodus' storyline. And by numbers, I mean the expressed numerical count of these "Israelites.' And this is before we even start to explore the other concerns. In essence, your argument already becomes irrelevant to address.

No, this is just moving the goalposts. The OP was not debating how many Israelites were in the Exodus, but "The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?"

No, the exact number is not a defeater for the Exodus account. 600,000 would still be a significant number. Now if I said there were 30,000, then that would not really align with what we consider the Exodus story.

I beg to differ. 600K <vs> 2 million (plus) is a significant difference. And again, this is before we even start to look at the other problems. So far, we have not needed to go there.

If the Hyksos were not even the Israelites, who cares how many Hyksos/Israelites there were? So, debating the exact number first is pointless. The first step is establishing the Hyksos qualifies as being the Israelites.

Another thing is there is no Bible passage that says there were 2 million people. It is only an inference. So, really you have no direct evidence a 2 million number is correct.

But again, for sake of argument and trying to move this debate along, we can go with a 2 million number.

1. Who were the Hyksos?

It's debatable who they were exactly?

You mean you do not accept the definitions that I provided? Again, please provide who you think the Hyksos were if you do not accept my definitions.

However, it is an irrelevant question. But we know who they weren't, as we can rule them out if one actually adheres to the claims made from the 'Exodus' storyline.

Again, it shows it doesn't matter what evidence is produced for skeptics. I don't think it's even possible to engage in a reasonable debate with skeptics now. I'm presenting the evidence for the Exodus that you've asked for in the OP. And any attempts to provide the evidence is automatically rejected, the goal keeps shifting, and basic simple questions are evaded.

Instead of just posting a video, can you cite the relevant argument that he's making that disputes the Hyksos as a candidate for the Israelites?

Instead of just telling me to sift through 40 pages or later asking me to answer a series of questions, get to your point(s). At least the video expresses many point(s) in a condensed 6-minute video.

I've done the hard work of research on this topic for a long time. I'm asking you to put a little work into it also. It is the standard operating procedure to give your argument and then provide a link as a reference, including YouTube videos. Simply posting links and then telling people to go read/watch those without even stating what is your argument is not how it works here.

[Difflugia]

Those who 'know' the Bible is false are deluded.

Historical records and archaeological discoveries either support the Biblical record of the exodus or not but no evidence exists to refute the Biblical record.

There is no evidence for the alleged tribes mentioned in Mormonism but there is ample evidence of the existence of the Jewish nation for 4,000 years.

Just because modern archaeologists cannot tell how many people lived in Egypt 4,000 years ago does not mean the Bible is in error.

The fact that there is no evidence to support myths and the fact that there remains little or no evidence to support historical events of 4,000 years ago does not disprove the Bible.

I'm going to start adding "in bed" to these.

[POI]

No, this is just moving the goalposts. The OP was not debating how many Israelites were in the Exodus, but "The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?"

I am not changing the rule(s), at all. The Bible states an "Exodus" took place. In order for an "Exodus" to have taken place, common knowledge asserts a minimum of 2 million Israelites, or more. 'The Exodus' makes many claims. I am merely focusing on one of the basics to this very large chain of claims, which would pertain to this storyline. We have many to go, but remember, we are questioning the claim(s) from the Bible. (i.e.):

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

*****************************

So far, you have not provided any evidence for 2 million (plus) Israelites.

If the Hyksos were not even the Israelites, who cares how many Hyksos/Israelites there were? So, debating the exact number first is pointless. The first step is establishing the Hyksos qualifies as being the Israelites.

We can argue, whether or not, the "Hyksos" were Israelites, sure. But it is irrelevant either way. 'The Exodus' puts forth a claim that 2 million (plus) did this/that/other. So far, we are only exploring the most basic of claim(s), and you have not passed the first step. Not even close.

Another thing is there is no Bible passage that says there were 2 million people.

I find this funny, as there are also no historical writings, from antiquity, which state the full number of "Hyksos". I already informed of how the number of 'Exodus" Israelites were calculated. And this concluded number is derived from common sense, while using basic math. Exodus 12:37 recounts the Israelites' journey from Rameses to Succoth, with an estimated six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children, marking their departure from Egypt. "The Book of Numbers further states that the number of Israelite males aged 20 years, and older, in the desert during the wandering was 603,550, which works out to a total population of 2.5-3 million -- including women and children — far more than could be supported by the Sinai Desert."

It is only an inference. So, really you have no direct evidence a 2 million number is correct.

Logic tells us 2 million is the bare minimum. It was likely more. Which only gets exceedingly worse, in your effort(s) to shoehorn in the 'Hyksos' as any plausible option, at all.

You mean you do not accept the definitions that I provided? Again, please provide who you think the Hyksos were if you do not accept my definitions.

I've answered this in more than one way. I first told you that we do not need to know the exact actual answer -- while still being logically capable to ruling out a claim or option(s). So far, we are only interested in the expressed number(s) to the given storyline. So far, trying to plug in the 'Hysos', fails miserably. And this is why you are trying to re-write the pages of the Bible, to shoehorn in this group of folks to keep the Bible relevant. And we haven't even started to address the many other expressed claims from the Bible, regarding this asserted storyline.

Again, it shows it doesn't matter what evidence is produced for skeptics.

Not even close. What this exchange shows, is you attempting to completely re-write the assertions of an event -- in which you admit is vital to being factually true. And so far, you are failing miserably.

I don't think it's even possible to engage in a reasonable debate with skeptics now.

Please look up the term 'gaslighting'.

I'm presenting the evidence for the Exodus that you've asked for in the OP.

No. You are not. "The Exodus" makes many claims. I'm merely investigating one of the easiest claims, which is the sheer number of folks claimed to have been involved in this storyline.

And any attempts to provide the evidence is automatically rejected,

I've explained repeatedly why your response(s) is/are logically and sensibly rejected. It is because you are clearly trying to shoehorn in another group of folks, which does not even pass the most basic of Biblical claims.

the goal keeps shifting, and basic simple questions are evaded.

LOL!

I've done the hard work of research on this topic for a long time. I'm asking you to put a little work into it also

Great. This is a debate/exchange. I'm not in a classroom, and you are not the professor, where I have to write papers to prove to you that I have read the required course material. I asked "Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?". Since you put in the hard work, you should then have no problem very briefly summarizing your position. You can make it very short. I do so, all the time, in other topics. So far, you asked me a series of questions related to the Hysos. I ask, "what about them"? You want me to give you my conclusion about them first. I wasn't the one who brought them up. You did. I then told you, why they are not to even be considered regardless. And so far, you appear flustered, because I'm pressing a basic numerical value. And this is before we address the many other claims made by the Bible.

It is the standard operating procedure to give your argument and then provide a link as a reference, including YouTube videos.

I have given two YouTube videos. No one addresses them. Likely because, most interlocutors are already aware there is no evidence to provide to support the claim(s) of "the Exodus" account. Heck, most even say so. Heck, you even said so. Which is why we instead see excuse after excuse. And which is also why you are desperately trying to make an irrelevant group of folks somehow relevant.

Simply posting links and then telling people to go read/watch those without even stating what is your argument is not how it works here.

I would not matter really. Most here already fully admit we have no evidence anyways. The videos just add more spice. Here is a (very basic) outline:

While reading the Bible, we can logically surmise the following assertions:

1) 2 million (plus) Jewish folks were enslaved in Egypt at the time the Bible claims
2) These Jewish folks were allowed to leave at the time the Bible claims
3) These Jewish folks wondered the desert for 40 years
4) These Jewish folks ultimately arrived at the actual said location, and also at the time the Bible claims

Outside the Bible's say so, does any evidence support any of these claims? No? Okay.... Then I guess we no longer have to take the Bible seriously?

[POI]

The fact that there is no evidence to support myths and the fact that there remains little or no evidence to support historical events of 4,000 years ago does not disprove the Bible.

Have you watched the video from post 12? The hot/dry desert has preserved tons of evidence to support the claims of the ancient Egyptians -- (from 4,000 years ago). We would also know if the ancient Egyptians tried to erase any evidence for the ancient Israelites, as they left evidence of trying to erase evidence of all sorts of embarrassing things. The claims from the Bible are just too large to leave nothing at all. We also have evidence of myth, as the Bible claims their destination was in the promised land, which we know is false, as this area was STILL occupied by the Egyptians This would be about as silly as stating that during WW2, some Jews escaped their concentration camp and sought refuge in Auschwitz Germany.

Hence, all you are producing here, are very weak excuses as to why there is no evidence to support the claims that 2 million (plus) Israelites were enslaved for centuries.

Marke: Those who 'know' the Bible is false are deluded.

You obviously have no counter. Hence, I understand the lack of response. We logically know the claims of "the Exodus" do not comport with later discovery. It's pretty much game-over for the Bible believing theist. Maybe instead search for truth in another book of claims about the said action(s) of a god or god(s). Or not. Whatever floats your boat.

[marke]

The fact that there is no evidence to support myths and the fact that there remains little or no evidence to support historical events of 4,000 years ago does not disprove the Bible.

Have you watched the video from post 12? The hot/dry desert has preserved tons of evidence to support the claims of the ancient Egyptians -- (from 4,000 years ago). We would also know if the ancient Egyptians tried to erase any evidence for the ancient Israelites, as they left evidence of trying to erase evidence of all sorts of embarrassing things. The claims from the Bible are just too large to leave nothing at all. We also have evidence of myth, as the Bible claims their destination was in the promised land, which we know is false, as this area was STILL occupied by the Egyptians This would be about as silly as stating that during WW2, some Jews escaped their concentration camp and sought refuge in Auschwitz Germany.

Hence, all you are producing here, are very weak excuses as to why there is no evidence to support the claims that 2 million (plus) Israelites were enslaved for centuries.

Marke: Those who 'know' the Bible is false are deluded.

You obviously have no counter. Hence, I understand the lack of response. We logically know the claims of "the Exodus" do not comport with later discovery. It's pretty much game-over for the Bible believing theist. Maybe instead search for truth in another book of claims about the said action(s) of a god or god(s). Or not. Whatever floats your boat.

Marke: You claim you have not found any evidence of the Jewish exodus from Egypt. I believe you. I suspect any evidence that one existed may be quickly diminishing. Nevertheless, there are those who claim to have found some evidence.

AI Overview

While the biblical account of the Exodus is rich with detail, archaeological evidence directly supporting the story of the Israelites' enslavement in Egypt and their subsequent exodus is limited and often debated.
Here's a summary of the key points:

[POI]

You claim you have not found any evidence of the Jewish exodus from Egypt. I believe you. I suspect any evidence that one existed may be quickly diminishing. Nevertheless, there are those who claim to have found some evidence.

AI Overview

While the biblical account of the Exodus is rich with detail, archaeological evidence directly supporting the story of the Israelites' enslavement in Egypt and their subsequent exodus is limited and often debated.
Here's a summary of the key points:[/b]

O <-- That is a circle. This is what we are doing:

Have you watched the video from post 12? The hot/dry desert has preserved tons of evidence to support the claims of the ancient Egyptians -- (from 4,000 years ago). We would also know if the ancient Egyptians tried to erase any evidence for the ancient Israelites, as they left evidence of trying to erase evidence of all sorts of embarrassing things. The claims from the Bible are just too large to leave nothing at all. We also have evidence of myth, as the Bible claims their destination was in the promised land, which we know is false, as this area was STILL occupied by the Egyptians This would be about as silly as stating that during WW2, some Jews escaped their concentration camp and sought refuge in Auschwitz Germany.

Hence, all you are producing here, are very weak excuses as to why there is no evidence to support the claims that 2 million (plus) Israelites were enslaved for centuries.

[marke]

You claim you have not found any evidence of the Jewish exodus from Egypt. I believe you. I suspect any evidence that one existed may be quickly diminishing. Nevertheless, there are those who claim to have found some evidence.

AI Overview

While the biblical account of the Exodus is rich with detail, archaeological evidence directly supporting the story of the Israelites' enslavement in Egypt and their subsequent exodus is limited and often debated.
Here's a summary of the key points:[/b]

O <-- That is a circle. This is what we are doing:

Have you watched the video from post 12? The hot/dry desert has preserved tons of evidence to support the claims of the ancient Egyptians -- (from 4,000 years ago). We would also know if the ancient Egyptians tried to erase any evidence for the ancient Israelites, as they left evidence of trying to erase evidence of all sorts of embarrassing things. The claims from the Bible are just too large to leave nothing at all. We also have evidence of myth, as the Bible claims their destination was in the promised land, which we know is false, as this area was STILL occupied by the Egyptians This would be about as silly as stating that during WW2, some Jews escaped their concentration camp and sought refuge in Auschwitz Germany.

Hence, all you are producing here, are very weak excuses as to why there is no evidence to support the claims that 2 million (plus) Israelites were enslaved for centuries.

Marke: I simply do not agree that finding no evidence of the exodus after 4,000 years over limited shallow sections of a large expanse of desert means the Bible is a lie.

[POI]

You claim you have not found any evidence of the Jewish exodus from Egypt. I believe you. I suspect any evidence that one existed may be quickly diminishing. Nevertheless, there are those who claim to have found some evidence.

AI Overview

While the biblical account of the Exodus is rich with detail, archaeological evidence directly supporting the story of the Israelites' enslavement in Egypt and their subsequent exodus is limited and often debated.
Here's a summary of the key points:[/b]

O <-- That is a circle. This is what we are doing:

Have you watched the video from post 12? The hot/dry desert has preserved tons of evidence to support the claims of the ancient Egyptians -- (from 4,000 years ago). We would also know if the ancient Egyptians tried to erase any evidence for the ancient Israelites, as they left evidence of trying to erase evidence of all sorts of embarrassing things. The claims from the Bible are just too large to leave nothing at all. We also have evidence of myth, as the Bible claims their destination was in the promised land, which we know is false, as this area was STILL occupied by the Egyptians This would be about as silly as stating that during WW2, some Jews escaped their concentration camp and sought refuge in Auschwitz Germany.

Hence, all you are producing here, are very weak excuses as to why there is no evidence to support the claims that 2 million (plus) Israelites were enslaved for centuries.

Marke: I simply do not agree that finding no evidence of the exodus after 4,000 years over limited shallow sections of a large expanse of desert means the Bible is a lie.

1) Okay? Then you must still keep an open mind for the many claims made by the Book of Mormon. They too make many physical claims which would span large territories for investigation. Are you still holding out for the many physical claims made by the Mormons? Or, have you deemed some of their claims 'fiction'?

2) Also, the ancient Egyptians were meticulous record keepers, and yet, they never mention a thing about such centuries of slave ownership? "Pushback" is applied by the believer, stating that the ancients would attempt to hide any evidence, due to later embarrassment. However, we have found evidence(s) of them attempting to cover up many things for similar reason(s). See the video in post 12 for details.

3) We know the Bible lies, as the timeline does not line up. After the apparent release of these Israelite slaves, when they are finally said to reach their destination, 40 years later, the destination location was actually still owned by the Egyptians. Why would they flee Egypt to settle into more Egypt? This would be about as ludicrous as stating that during WW2, some Jews escaped their concentration camp and sought refuge in Auschwitz Germany.

[otseng]

I am merely focusing on one of the basics to this very large chain of claims, which would pertain to this storyline. We have many to go, but remember, we are questioning the claim(s) from the Bible. (i.e.):

You're focusing on a link way down the chain. The Hyksos never started out as 2 million people. I'm starting at the very first link where the Israelites enter Egypt. So, this shows again the irrelevance of focusing on how many could have left Egypt.

We can argue, whether or not, the "Hyksos" were Israelites, sure. But it is irrelevant either way. 'The Exodus' puts forth a claim that 2 million (plus) did this/that/other. So far, we are only exploring the most basic of claim(s), and you have not passed the first step. Not even close.

If we can argue about the Hyksos, please answer the question of who they were since you rejected my definitions.

I find this funny, as there are also no historical writings, from antiquity, which state the full number of "Hyksos".

Why would we expect the Egyptians to record the full number of the Hyksos?
What percentage of ancient writings state the exact number of any population?

"The Book of Numbers further states that the number of Israelite males aged 20 years, and older, in the desert during the wandering was 603,550, which works out to a total population of 2.5-3 million -- including women and children — far more than could be supported by the Sinai Desert."

Debating the wandering in the desert would be one of the last links in the long chain.

You mean you do not accept the definitions that I provided? Again, please provide who you think the Hyksos were if you do not accept my definitions.

I've answered this in more than one way. I first told you that we do not need to know the exact actual answer -- while still being logically capable to ruling out a claim or option(s).

Yes, you responded with that multiple times, but it's not answering it. The only reason I see you're not willing to answer this question is because it aligns with my view that the Hyksos would be a candidate for the Israelites, so you reject the answers out of hand.

All I'm claiming so far with the Hyksos is they were from the Canaan area and were Semitic. This checks off one requirement for them being the Israelites. Of course, there are a lot more requirements, which I will proceed with the chain of evidence in a logical fashion.

So far, we are only interested in the expressed number(s) to the given storyline.

It's irrelevant to this stage of the debate. Again, for sake of argument, we can accept the 2 million number for now, but this would only be relevant when we get to the wandering in the wilderness.

What this exchange shows, is you attempting to completely re-write the assertions of an event -- in which you admit is vital to being factually true.

Then enlighten me on the next question and tell me what is the real history of the Hyksos.

2. How were they able to reside in Egypt?

And so far, you are failing miserably.

I'll let readers assess who is the one failing miserably.

I'm presenting the evidence for the Exodus that you've asked for in the OP.

No. You are not. "The Exodus" makes many claims. I'm merely investigating one of the easiest claims, which is the sheer number of folks claimed to have been involved in this storyline.

Who's the one gaslighting? I'm logically presenting my case from the beginning with the Israelites entering Egypt. I'm claiming the Hyksos were the Israelites. And I've presented secular definitions of who were the Hyksos:

1. Who were the Hyksos?

The Hyksos were a Semitic people who gained a foothold in Egypt c. 1782 BCE at the city of Avaris in Lower Egypt, thus initiating the era known in Egyptian history as the Second Intermediate Period (c. 1782 - c. 1570 BCE).

https://www.worldhistory.org/Hyksos/

Hyksos, dynasty of Palestinian origin that ruled northern Egypt as the 15th dynasty (c. 1630–c. 1530 bce.
Modern scholarship has identified most of the Hyksos kings’ names as Semitic.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hyksos ... an-dynasty

the term Hyksos is used ethnically to designate people of probable West Semitic, Levantine origin.
The Hyksos period marks the first in which foreign rulers ruled Egypt.
The Hyksos practiced many Levantine or Canaanite customs alongside Egyptian ones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

I've explained repeatedly why your response(s) is/are logically and sensibly rejected.

I find that to be quite ironic when you won't answer my questions and then try to divert the discussion into debating the actual number of people leaving Egypt, which has no bearing on the Israelites entering Egypt.

It is because you are clearly trying to shoehorn in another group of folks, which does not even pass the most basic of Biblical claims.

If the shoe fits, then it confirms the Biblical claims.

You want me to give you my conclusion about them first. I wasn't the one who brought them up. You did. I then told you, why they are not to even be considered regardless.

You asked for the strongest evidence for the Exodus, so I'm presenting one of the strongest. I think you're implicitly acknowledging it's one of the strongest because you're not willing to engage in this, but simply just reiterating the Hyksos could not be the Israelites without stating why.

And so far, you appear flustered, because I'm pressing a basic numerical value.

Because I'm approaching it logically and starting at the beginning, but you want to avoid that.

I have given two YouTube videos. No one addresses them.

I can as well just post a bunch of YouTube videos without explaining what is my argument.

Specifically what is stated in the videos and what evidence do they present? I'll then address it.

Likely because, most interlocutors are already aware there is no evidence to provide to support the claim(s) of "the Exodus" account. Heck, most even say so. Heck, you even said so. Which is why we instead see excuse after excuse. And which is also why you are desperately trying to make an irrelevant group of folks somehow relevant.

I suspect you simply just did a search for why the Hyksos cannot be the Israelites and then just posted the link without watching it. Prove me wrong by presenting their arguments.

While reading the Bible, we can logically surmise the following basic assertions:

1) 2 million (plus) Jewish folks were enslaved in Egypt at the time the Bible claims
2) These Jewish folks were allowed to leave at the time the Bible claims
3) These Jewish folks wondered the desert for 40 years
4) These Jewish folks ultimately arrived at the actual said location, and also at the time the Bible claims

The first step would be the Israelites entering Egypt. Then we can get to those claims later.