The Lord's prayer

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[APAK]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

My thoughts on this subject...

The Lord's prayer was given prior to the ascension of Christ. And thus, in part, fulfilled after his ascension.

It was a prayer to Christ's Father, who is God and to those of the people of God that would be in attendance at Pentecost and beyond, like the disciples. It was also a prayer that Christ communicated with his Father, in advance of his Kingdom rule. To let his know that his Son would soon establish the Kingdom after his death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. It was the primary goal of his ministry.

Adding in an expression of Isaiah 9:6 if it is original, into this prayer, or mix, only causes confusion. It does not mean that Christ was giving a prayer about himself and to himself.

If the 'Eternal Father' is original in Isaiah 9:6, it has to do with Christ being the 1st new creation/birth from the dead of God, to immortality. He became the father of it, and there's no one else that could for(ever) be this same father figure. He is the father of many to follow him into an immortal state of being.

And it's the Father in heaven who Christ is speaking to, not Christ being in heaven in the future.

And that the Kingdom was already established, in the past, and we are today still living in this symbolic 1000 year of Kingdom maturity and expansion in the hearts of the people living on the earth, in each generation.

The Father God's will shall be done in the process of today's ongoing Kingdom rule by Christ, by genuine believers on the earth, as God's will then is done in sync with heavenly bodies and heaven's oversight.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

My thoughts on this subject...

The Lord's prayer was given prior to the ascension of Christ. And thus, in part, fulfilled after his ascension.

It was a prayer to Christ's Father, who is God and to those of the people of God that would be in attendance at Pentecost and beyond, like the disciples. It was also a prayer that Christ communicated with his Father, in advance of his Kingdom rule. To let his know that his Son would soon establish the Kingdom after his death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. It was the primary goal of his ministry.

Adding in an expression of Isaiah 9:6 if it is original, into this prayer, or mix, only causes confusion. It does not mean that Christ was giving a prayer about himself and to himself.

If the 'Eternal Father' is original in Isaiah 9:6, it has to do with Christ being the 1st new creation/birth from the dead of God, to immortality. He became the father of it, and there's no one else that could for(ever) be this same father figure. He is the father of many to follow him into an immortal state of being.

And it's the Father in heaven who Christ is speaking to, not Christ being in heaven in the future.

And that the Kingdom was already established, in the past, and we are today still living in this symbolic 1000 year of Kingdom maturity and expansion in the hearts of the people living on the earth, in each generation.

The Father God's will shall be done in the process of today's ongoing Kingdom rule by Christ, by genuine believers on the earth, as God's will then is done in sync with heavenly bodies and heaven's oversight.

Your approach is correct if you think like a Jehovah's Witness and use the N.W.T. As long as a person believes that Jesus is not Jehovah, a created being, and the Holy Spirit is the breath of the Father, I would have to agree with you.

But I use the K.J.B. and would prefer most any other Bible or the N.I.V., or one that uses a similar text. But in my heart, and not because I have taken the advice of anyone or am siding with any particular denomination, and because I have done my own (IN Depth) research on the history of the King James Bible, the N.W.T., and the N.I.V which would take under its wing 99% of all other Bibles, the K.J.B. is superior to them all. And because that is the case, here are the reasons I have to disagree with your conclusions.

We can begin with the verse you referred to. Isaiah 9:6. It is correct: Why? The proof of its authenticity can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Jesus is, The mighty God, The everlasting Rather, and the Prince of Peace," Isaiah 9:6.

John 1:1, "And the Word was God." With verse 14, "The Word was made Flesh." That would be Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh." That would be Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:16, "speaking of Jesus, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,"

Hebrews 1:8, The Father in heaven said the following concerning his beloved Son, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever:" The Father calls his Son God, then said, "Your throne is forever and ever:"

Revelation 1:8, Jesus' own words call himself "the Almighty."

Thomas is with Jesus, puts his hand in the wound in his side and said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God."

And I can go on. Now what the Watchtower had to do was change the wording or certain words in each of the above verses. The Witnesses used the K.J.B. until 1971 and have had three more copyrights since then, four all-toll.

I would challenge any Witness to make the same (honest) examinations that I made concerning the N.W.T. and the King James Bible. I don't mean a brush-over, but an intense investigation of your own, no outside interference. Go to any library, they have the books needed for the investigation. That's what I did. Examine their history, their founders, the men who did the translating, and their credentials. Take a close look at the Arian heresy of 325 A.D. and then follow its history right to the door of the Watchtower. Then examine the 1942 edition of the Watchtower published Diaglott, especially John 1:1. If you have an honest interest in your eternity, you would be a K.J.B. user because it is God's Word.

Anyway, thanks for your response.

[APAK]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

My thoughts on this subject...

The Lord's prayer was given prior to the ascension of Christ. And thus, in part, fulfilled after his ascension.

It was a prayer to Christ's Father, who is God and to those of the people of God that would be in attendance at Pentecost and beyond, like the disciples. It was also a prayer that Christ communicated with his Father, in advance of his Kingdom rule. To let his know that his Son would soon establish the Kingdom after his death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. It was the primary goal of his ministry.

Adding in an expression of Isaiah 9:6 if it is original, into this prayer, or mix, only causes confusion. It does not mean that Christ was giving a prayer about himself and to himself.

If the 'Eternal Father' is original in Isaiah 9:6, it has to do with Christ being the 1st new creation/birth from the dead of God, to immortality. He became the father of it, and there's no one else that could for(ever) be this same father figure. He is the father of many to follow him into an immortal state of being.

And it's the Father in heaven who Christ is speaking to, not Christ being in heaven in the future.

And that the Kingdom was already established, in the past, and we are today still living in this symbolic 1000 year of Kingdom maturity and expansion in the hearts of the people living on the earth, in each generation.

The Father God's will shall be done in the process of today's ongoing Kingdom rule by Christ, by genuine believers on the earth, as God's will then is done in sync with heavenly bodies and heaven's oversight.

Your approach is correct if you think like a Jehovah's Witness and use the N.W.T. As long as a person believes that Jesus is not Jehovah, a created being, and the Holy Spirit is the breath of the Father, I would have to agree with you.

But I use the K.J.B. and would prefer most any other Bible or the N.I.V., or one that uses a similar text. But in my heart, and not because I have taken the advice of anyone or am siding with any particular denomination, and because I have done my own (IN Depth) research on the history of the King James Bible, the N.W.T., and the N.I.V which would take under its wing 99% of all other Bibles, the K.J.B. is superior to them all. And because that is the case, here are the reasons I have to disagree with your conclusions.

We can begin with the verse you referred to. Isaiah 9:6. It is correct: Why? The proof of its authenticity can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Jesus is, The mighty God, The everlasting Rather, and the Prince of Peace," Isaiah 9:6.

John 1:1, "And the Word was God." With verse 14, "The Word was made Flesh." That would be Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh." That would be Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:16, "speaking of Jesus, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,"

Hebrews 1:8, The Father in heaven said the following concerning his beloved Son, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever:" The Father calls his Son God, then said, "Your throne is forever and ever:"

Revelation 1:8, Jesus' own words call himself "the Almighty."

Thomas is with Jesus, puts his hand in the wound in his side and said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God."

And I can go on. Now what the Watchtower had to do was change the wording or certain words in each of the above verses. The Witnesses used the K.J.B. until 1971 and have had three more copyrights since then, four all-toll.

I would challenge any Witness to make the same (honest) examinations that I made concerning the N.W.T. and the King James Bible. I don't mean a brush-over, but an intense investigation of your own, no outside interference. Go to any library, they have the books needed for the investigation. That's what I did. Examine their history, their founders, the men who did the translating, and their credentials. Take a close look at the Arian heresy of 325 A.D. and then follow its history right to the door of the Watchtower. Then examine the 1942 edition of the Watchtower published Diaglott, especially John 1:1. If you have an honest interest in your eternity, you would be a K.J.B. user because it is God's Word.

Anyway, thanks for your response.

You really are not addressing the OP of the Lord's Prayer I see. You have another area of interest that is weighing on your mind I see. You want to impress upon me your theology over the topic at at-hand.

I do not agree that a JW only, if they even do, only thinks of the Lord's Prayer using my approach or its understanding. In fact I would say this subject has more to do with understanding scripture, context and not what one's theology and doctrines dictate.

And now what impact has a version or versions of the Bible to do with the understanding of the Lords' Prayer, as written down, that are very similar, in any version of the Bible?

And now you have completely left the thread subject to list certain only-one-verse scripture for what? To say you are a Trinitarian I expect, as my words said indicate otherwise? Well then thank you for telling me that...

And what do you know of historical Arian and all his doctrines and beliefs? I frankly know of a few of his beliefs only.

And for future reference, I do not like or do labels or labelling anyone in searching and knowing the truth in the holy writ. It kills off potential edifying discussions from the get-go.

If you are curious then and want to know what type of labels I might be close to or resemble in SOME parts...they would encompass being ...a strict Monotheist, Biblical Unitarian, a type of neo-preterist and a so-called A-millennialist.

If you want to discuss your listed scripture, then please let me know.

PS. I'm still get used to posting on this forum....I hope this post fires away as I expect it..

///Great Day and thanks for your post!

[placebofactor]

[APAK]

[placebofactor]

[APAK]

[placebofactor]

[Replying to APAK in post #8]

The disciples said to Jesus, "Lord, teach us to pray." Jesus said to his disciples, "When you pray, say, our Father which art in Heaven Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; --- lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Isaiah 9:6 reveals to us that Jesus is our everlasting Father. So, what Jesus was telling his disciples, when you pray, pray to me, I am your everlasting Father, your mediator between you and my Father.

Now, is there another verse to support the idea that we are to pray to Jesus because he is, as Isaiah wrote, our "everlasting Father?"

John 14:13-14, At the last supper, Jesus said to his disciples, "Whatsoever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

[APAK]