Did Jesus Really Pay The Penalty For Our Sins?

[myth-one.com]

Question: Did Jesus Pay The Penalty For Our Sins?

Christians today generally accept that nonbelievers will suffer eternally in the fires of hell for their sins. But if the wages of sin is eternity in hellfire, Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins. He simply died! Where did we go wrong?

Both testaments of the Bible contain covenants or wills between man and God. The inheritance or reward under either covenant is eternal life. The path to eternal life under the Old Testament was obeying all of God's commandments. That is, you must never sin because the wages of sin is death. However, this meant that no man could inherit eternal life because all men sinned.

What if another person could serve the penalty for our sins? For this to occur that person could not already be under the same judgment. If you are already under a death sentence you cannot substitute your life for a friend who is also on death row. In addition, you must serve out his full sentence. Under the New Testament Jesus suffered our punishment of death so that we could inherit eternal life. The wages of sin is death, but He never sinned. Therefore, His life could be given for ours.

But if humans are born with immortal souls the punishment must be changed since the soul lives forever! The punishment for sinning can no longer be the second death as taught in the scriptures. Thus, it has been changed to eternal punishment in hellfire! But if that is the case Jesus Christ did not pay our penalty! Jesus should presently be burning in hell and should stay there for all eternity since this is the punishment mainstream Christianity assigns to mankind for sinning!

This concept that nonbelievers will burn alive in hellfire eternally and never die, trivializes the death of Jesus Christ! In comparison to what present day theology holds in store for one nonbeliever, Jesus' crucifixion on the cross is a mosquito bite! Being crucified daily for a thousand years is preferable to burning alive for eternity. The true punishment for your sin is the second death which is eternal. You never live again after suffering the second death. It is the death which is eternal not the act and torture of dying by fire!

Jesus did indeed serve our penalty and He was a valid sacrifice since He was innocent of any sin! We can now escape the second death and live forever thanks to His sacrifice. Jesus died a physical death as a human on the cross. Man's second and permanent death is also a physical death. Humans who fulfill the requirement of the New Testament covenant do not suffer the second death since their penalty for sinning has already been paid. That New Testament requirement for inheriting eternal life is believing in Jesus as your Savior:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Those believing in the immortal soul must interpret perish in John 3:16 to mean something other than death since their soul will never perish! One common erroneous interpretation is that it means "spiritual death" or "eternal separation from God." But if the penalty for sinning is eternal separation from God, then once again Jesus did not serve our punishment! Jesus is not separated from God! He is one third of the Trinity of God!

There are some topics in the Bible which are difficult to understand. This is not one of them! Jesus paid the price for our sins. What are the wages of our sinning? Death! What did Jesus do? He died on the cross. In fact, Jesus Christ is the only human to qualify for eternal life under the Old Testament. That is, the wages of sin is death but He never sinned, so He did not have to die. He laid down His life willingly.

The plan of salvation as designed by God is so incredibly simple! The wages of sin is death and all have sinned and are facing the second death. God sends His Son to earth as a human and Jesus lives a sinless life so He does not have to die. Therefore, He can lay down His life for ours. He willingly dies in our stead for our sins. Humans who accept Jesus as their Savior gain eternal life since Jesus has already paid the price for their sinning. Those who do not accept Jesus as their Savior must pay the penalty for their sinning which is perishing in the second death. The wages of sin is death.

However, man believes he is immortal due to use of the word "soul" in the King James Bible and Satan's lie that, "Ye shall not surely die." Man's new plan of salvation becomes extremely complicated as he designs myths to create new punishments for sinning. The true punishment of death as defined by God is no longer viable because man's "soul" lives forever and cannot die!

But no matter what mythical punishments men create to protect the immortal soul myth, none of them pass one simple and obvious test. Jesus Christ had to pay the full penalty for our sinning in order to become our Savior. He had to serve our full punishment. What did He do? He died! He died! Read it once again, He died! The wages of sin is death, and He died in our place. He is not burning in hell for eternity, He is not eternally separated from God, He did not have to write, "I will not sin" one trillion times, or any other ridiculous punishment! He died. Those who choose not to believe in Jesus must pay their own wages for sinning. Therefore, they die! Can this be any simpler?

If you are a Christian, you will have (future tense) eternal life! However, Christians believing the false theology of the immortal soul will be asked some embarrassing questions upon meeting Jesus face to face! How could they believe that Jesus, who created everything, would create a system whereby one individual would suffer pain and horror for eternity in the fires of hell? What part of "God is love," did they not understand? Here is our Savior who died that we might have eternal life. Yet, shortly after He departs the earth, most are convinced that all mankind is born with eternal life! Here is our Savior who taught nonviolence, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, do good to them that hurt you. Yet, shortly after His departure, most are convinced that His plan is for untold masses of humanity to suffer indescribable pain for eternity! If this was in His plan, why did He not mention it in detail while He was a human on earth? Granted, most of us were taught this false theology from birth. Even so, at some point when we began to reason on our own we should have seen the obvious flaw. Begin now to prepare your answers to these questions which will surely be asked!

Taken by permission from http://www.have-no-fear.com

[Goat]

Until God gave Adam and Eve one commandment, they could not sin. They could perform "sinful" acts, but it was not counted as sin because they did not know it was a sin. They ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil knowing they were violating God's commandment and thus sinning. This opened them up to more possible sin by gaining the knowledge of good and evil. That is, they now recognized more sins.

Until they ate from the tree, they could not KNOW the consequences of the commandment. Until there is knowledge, there is no sin.

[myth-one.com]

Until God gave Adam and Eve one commandment, they could not sin. They could perform "sinful" acts, but it was not counted as sin because they did not know it was a sin. They ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil knowing they were violating God's commandment and thus sinning. This opened them up to more possible sin by gaining the knowledge of good and evil. That is, they now recognized more sins.

Until they ate from the tree, they could not KNOW the consequences of the commandment. Until there is knowledge, there is no sin.

The knowledge regarding the "tree of knowledge" came from God commanding them to refrain from eating the fruit and explaining the consequences if they did! If they had to eat from the tree of knowledge before understanding God, then God would have handed them a piece of the fruit and said eat this so I can tell you dimwits not to eat from it again. After eating of the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve recognized that they were naked and attempted to cover themselves -- Without God having to say, "You idiots are naked and that is bad." Had God informed them that they were naked and they should cover themselves prior to their eating the fruit, they would have done so.

[Goat]

Until God gave Adam and Eve one commandment, they could not sin. They could perform "sinful" acts, but it was not counted as sin because they did not know it was a sin. They ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil knowing they were violating God's commandment and thus sinning. This opened them up to more possible sin by gaining the knowledge of good and evil. That is, they now recognized more sins.

Until they ate from the tree, they could not KNOW the consequences of the commandment. Until there is knowledge, there is no sin.

The knowledge regarding the "tree of knowledge" came from God commanding them to refrain from eating the fruit and explaining the consequences if they did! If they had to eat from the tree of knowledge before understanding God, then God would have handed them a piece of the fruit and said eat this so I can tell you dimwits not to eat from it again. After eating of the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve recognized that they were naked and attempted to cover themselves -- Without God having to say, "You idiots are naked and that is bad." Had God informed them that they were naked and they should cover themselves prior to their eating the fruit, they would have done so.

The KNOWLEDGE comes from the tree. Before the tree, they did not have the KNOWLEDGE to understand.

[myth-one.com]

Until they ate from the tree, they could not KNOW the consequences of the commandment. Until there is knowledge, there is no sin.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

The law consists of all of God's commandments (there are more than just ten). The first law or commandment from God to Adam and Eve regarded the Tree of Knowledge. Since they had a law to violate, and since sin is the transgression of the law, they could sin. All they had to do was "transgress" that one law.

Sin is not imputed when there is no law.

They had the one law, and the sin would be imputed or charged if it was transgressed. I do see your point that knowledge of good and evil came from the tree via the fruit. Probably they did not totally understand the consequences. They did know that it was prohibited. That was adequate. The consequence of their first sin was actually two fold: they would gain the knowledge of good and evil and they would die as the wages of sin is death.

This is similar (or is it?) to telling a child not to touch the hot stove. He does not understand the consequences until touching the hot stove because he's never been burned. He has to trust that his parent knows best. The sin is actually disobeying the parent's command, not touching the stove.

[Goat]

Until they ate from the tree, they could not KNOW the consequences of the commandment. Until there is knowledge, there is no sin.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

The law consists of all of God's commandments (there are more than just ten). The first law or commandment from God to Adam and Eve regarded the Tree of Knowledge. Since they had a law to violate, and since sin is the transgression of the law, they could sin. All they had to do was "transgress" that one law.

Sin is not imputed when there is no law.

They had the one law, and the sin would be imputed or charged if it was transgressed. I do see your point that knowledge of good and evil came from the tree via the fruit. Probably they did not totally understand the consequences. They did know that it was prohibited. That was adequate. The consequence of their first sin was actually two fold: they would gain the knowledge of good and evil and they would die as the wages of sin is death.

This is similar (or is it?) to telling a child not to touch the hot stove. He does not understand the consequences until touching the hot stove because he's never been burned. He has to trust that his parent knows best. The sin is actually disobeying the parent's command, not touching the stove.

Until the law is law. Does an infant know 'don't touch the stove' when it is learning to crawl. There has to be knowledge before the prohibition is understood to be a commandment.

[myth-one.com]

Until the law is law. Does an infant know 'don't touch the stove' when it is learning to crawl. There has to be knowledge before the prohibition is understood to be a commandment.

I agree and so do the scriptures. When the children of Israel rebelled against the commandments of God after departing Egypt, God let them wander in the wilderness so that the sinful adults would die off and not see the Promised Land. However, those who were children and had no knowledge of good and evil when these sins were committed were allowed to take possession of the Promised Land:

Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

The laws are there, but they are not imputed until the person understands the law -- and understanding requires knowledge. The same concept is in mankinds criminal laws today. The worst case scenario might be mentally challenged infants who never reach a mental age where they understand right from wrong. They would never be held responsible for committing "sins."

At some point, all infants except for the special cases, will reach a point where they will "understand" and trust a parents guidance. Many may "learn this knowledge" by going against their parents commands and suffering the consequences. Perhaps after many painful situations (including spankings, etc) it finally occurs to them that perhaps mommy and daddy know what they're talking about. Every time I do not obey them, it is unpleasant. They will eventually make the association of "bad" acts with "bad" consequences. Somewhere in this time period, he "gains" the knowledge through experience that he should mind his parents. The next time he disobeys them it is a sin.

But this same "learning" technique can be used to "teach" animals. If you put a "hot wire" around a garden which you want a dog to stay out of, and he gets shocked numerour times while trying to get into that garden, you can eventually remove the wire and the dog will stay out of the garden. Did we teach the dog to stay out of the garden. No, we taught him that there are very probably going to be painful consequences for getting too close to the garden. He gained knowledge, but does he recognize going into the garden as a "sin?" Probably not.

In the days of Moses, these "children" were everyone under 20 years of age. This may explain the often used legal age of adulthood today being 21 years. At these ages they could also observe the consequences of those sinning around them. Many of these "children" for example knew they were lost in this wilderness because their parents sinned. So they also had this learning experience. Although we do not know whether or not Adam and Eve went through these same type of learning experiences with God; we can safely assume (I think) that they were child like.

[Greatest I Am]

I would like to speak to a few items I have read here.

"Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This first or original sin gained mankind the ability to distinguish right from wrong."
Before eating they were as noted innocent. They knew though that eating would bring death. In other words they chose death to a life of ignorance and innocence in the garden.

Eve is to be venerated then for helping us escape a garden of ignorance.


" The first man (Adam) was created as an eternal being."

I cannot agree with this statement because Adam had yet to eat of the tree of life.
The tree of life and immortality with ignorance was rejected for knowledge, wisdom and death. Thank God.


I would like to ask, if death is the wages of sin why do angels not die.


"Remember, our judgement has already been carried out on the person of Jesus Christ. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21. Therefore God does judge rightly"

This tells me that Jesus actually died for all sin as us is all of us.
Am I reading this right?

I contend that if Jesus did not die for all of our sins then His death was wasted.


Regards
DL

[myth-one.com]

Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This first or original sin gained mankind the ability to distinguish right from wrong."
Before eating they were as noted innocent. They knew though that eating would bring death. In other words they chose death to a life of ignorance and innocence in the garden.

They actually believed Satan over God:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Mankind still believes Satan over God. Virtually every religion still believes in some type of life after death. In other words, mankind generally still believes Satan's lie that all humans are born with immortality.

The first man (Adam) was created as an eternal being.

Adam was made mortal flesh and blood from dust. However, he would not die until sinning, as the wages of sin is death. So man was created with the ability of dying as soon as he sinned. Theoretically, he would live forever if he could resist sin forever. God placed an upper limit of 120 years on the life of humans after Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge.

I cannot agree with this statement because Adam had yet to eat of the tree of life.

No one has yet eaten from the tree of life. Man was ejected from the Garden of Eden to separate him from the tree of life, so he could not eat of its fruit and live forever.

I would like to ask, if death is the wages of sin why do angels not die.

Angels are immortal spiritual beings which live forever. They cannot be killed. Once Christians are born again as spiritual beings we will be equal to the angels and live eternally also. We will still be able to sin since we have freedom of choice, but death will no longer apply to us. The one third of the angels who rebelled with Satan are all still alive.

I contend that if Jesus did not die for all of our sins then His death was wasted.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I'm glad to see you label it as such. Jesus actually died for all but one of our sins. Under the Old Testament covenant, absolutely no sin was pardonable. The wages of any and all sin was death. Under the New Testament covenant, all sin is pardonable with the exception of one! That one unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

[Greatest I Am]

Myth-one

You are contradicting yourself and running away from explaining your contradictions. They will remain unless you address them.

First you say that Adam was immortal before eating of the tree of good and evil. When I point out that He had yet to eat of the tree of life, you agree that no one had eaten but let your initial statement stand and do not tell us when Adam lost his immortality.
If you do not admit errors then your credibility is lost.

You indicate that Satan was in the Garden. Is it a big surprise to you that Eve would succumb to the charm of a supernatural being, would you not also have ”fallen”. I thank God she did otherwise we would not likely be here. Humanities history would be about one quarter page long instead of volumes.

Eve believed Satan. If you read the words spoken by Satan and the words spoken by God, you see that Satan’s words are closer to truth than God’s. How do you explain this?


“Adam was made mortal flesh and blood from dust. However, he would not die until sinning,”
Please show where this is indicated in scripture?

As to the wages of sin. The Bible does not show any exceptions to this rule. It is probably the clearest phrase in the whole of the book.
Please show where you get the notion that there are exceptions to this LAW.

“Jesus actually died for all but one of our sins.”
I will not disagree with this statement but I do not think you can prove it in scripture.
Not a challenge for you here but I wonder if you have found proof of this where I could not.

Matthew 12:31-32
Does not indicate that Jesus died to forgive all sin, it does indicate the sin’s that will be forgiven.

Is there a quote that indicates that Jesus’ death forgave all sin.?
What type of history do you see if we had stayed in the garden other than just following God while remaining ignorant of good and evil?

Regards
DL

[myth-one.com]

First you say that Adam was immortal before eating of the tree of good and evil. When I point out that He had yet to eat of the tree of life, you agree that no one had eaten but let your initial statement stand and do not tell us when Adam lost his immortality. If you do not admit errors then your credibility is lost.

Where did I ever say that Adam (or any human) is immortal? Also, immortality cannot be lost once obtained.

You indicate that Satan was in the Garden. Is it a big surprise to you that Eve would succumb to the charm of a supernatural being, would you not also have ”fallen”. I thank God she did otherwise we would not likely be here. Humanities history would be about one quarter page long instead of volumes.

I understood virtually none of the above statement!

Eve believed Satan. If you read the words spoken by Satan and the words spoken by God, you see that Satan’s words are closer to truth than God’s. How do you explain this?

Satan lied, and God's words are true. But you just claimed that "Satan's words are closer to the truth than God's." So you believe that neither was totally truthful. In other words, you just called God a liar. This is your personal opinion, not mine or anyone I know.

“Adam was made mortal flesh and blood from dust. However, he would not die until sinning,”
Please show where this is indicated in scripture?

No problem: The wages of sin is death. Adam did not have to pay the wages (death) until he sinned. This is not to say that Adam was born immortal! Being born and living until you sinned is not the same as being born with immortality. If there is a path to death, one is not immortal even if he never takes that path. One is not immortal if there exists the possibility of death, because immortal beings never die! That would be impossible!

As to the wages of sin. The Bible does not show any exceptions to this rule. It is probably the clearest phrase in the whole of the book.
Please show where you get the notion that there are exceptions to this LAW.

There are none. The wages of any and all sin is death (once one is aware of and understands God's laws). Where did you get the notion that I got that notion?

“Jesus actually died for all but one of our sins.”
I will not disagree with this statement but I do not think you can prove it in scripture. Not a challenge for you here but I wonder if you have found proof of this where I could not.

Here are two verses proving that there is one unforgivable sin:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. (Luke 12:10)

Matthew 12:31-32 Does not indicate that Jesus died to forgive all sin, it does indicate the sin’s that will be forgiven.

Actually, it states that all manner of sin except for one will be forgiven. That unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Here, read it again:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

Is there a quote that indicates that Jesus’ death forgave all sin.?

John 3:16.

What type of history do you see if we had stayed in the garden other than just following God while remaining ignorant of good and evil?

We would all still be living in a paradise.