Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

[marke]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #48]

Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?
Socialism is Not Inherently Authoritarian
A common misconception equates socialism with state control or authoritarian communism. However, worker-oriented socialism, as discussed by economist Richard Wolff, focuses on economic democracy—empowering workers to control the means of production rather than consolidating wealth under a capitalist elite or state bureaucracy.

Marke: Without authoritarianism socialism could not rob the rich to give to the poor.

Importantly, socialism doesn’t have to be utopian to be worth pursuing. Capitalism isn’t perfect—it’s riddled with crises, inequality, and inefficiencies—yet it persists because it benefits those in power. The question isn’t whether socialism is flawless, but whether it’s a step toward a more just and functional society.

Marke: America thrived under capitalism while nations like Haiti remained dirt poor because of the lack of capitalism.

By this measure:

Capitalism disproportionately benefits the wealthy, leaving the majority economically insecure.

Marke: The poor are not poor because the rich are rich. Just look at communist nations where poverty is widespread while communist bosses get filthy rich.

Worker-driven socialism redistributes economic power, allowing people to own their labor, share in profits, and stabilize conditions.

Marke: Proletariat-benefitting communism is a lie promoted by greedy and wicked tyrants for personal gain.

Worker cooperatives already demonstrate success, yet remain suppressed because they threaten capitalist hierarchies.
If capitalism’s failures are evident, then isn’t it more moral to pursue a system that prioritizes collective well-being over corporate profit? If worker-driven socialism offers the most viable ethical alternative, then our responsibility is to advance it—even if it isn’t an instant or perfect solution.

Marke: Capitalism provides the job opportunities for greater growth in accumulated wealth among employees while socialism never eliminates poverty because no nation can buy the poor out of poverty with the money confiscated from the rich.

Communism Has Never Been Actualized
Communism remains an unrealized concept not because it is inherently flawed, but because both the ruling and working classes struggle with re-education.

The ruling class resists communism because it demands they relinquish control over wealth and production.
The working class, conditioned by capitalist structures, struggles to imagine a world beyond wage labor, especially in societies where individualism and consumerism are deeply ingrained.
As a result, so-called “communist” regimes have never implemented true communism. Instead, they have replicated capitalist hierarchies within a state-controlled system, leading to authoritarian bureaucracies rather than worker liberation.

This is why worker-oriented socialism remains the most viable alternative today—it gradually shifts economic power from capitalist elites to workers without requiring total state control or immediate abolition of private property.

Jesus’ Teachings Align with Actualized Communism
Despite modern distortions, Jesus’ message aligns more with communism than with capitalism or even transitional socialism.

1. The Early Christian Community Modeled Communism
"All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need." (Acts 2:44-45)

Marke: The result of the failed socilist experiment in Jerusalem resulted in this:
Romans 15:26
For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Early Christians didn’t just practice charity—they abolished private wealth among themselves, distributing resources based on need. This wasn’t capitalism or socialism as a transitional phase—it was a direct attempt at communal living.

2. Jesus’ Teachings Reject Capitalist Ideals
Jesus challenged wealth accumulation and economic inequality in ways that directly oppose capitalism:

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24) → A condemnation of wealth hoarding.
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth." (Matthew 6:19) → A rejection of profit-driven accumulation.
"You cannot serve both God and money." (Matthew 6:24) → A direct critique of capitalist materialism.
Jesus didn’t advocate for regulated capitalism, welfare capitalism, or state socialism—he preached a radical economic transformation where wealth was shared, and economic power was decentralized. These ideals align more closely with communism than with capitalism.

Marke: Jesus warned against seeking wealth above all things, whether by workers banding together in unions to demand greater riches from those they seek to fleece for their own selfish advantages or by the rich employers seeking to oppress their employees for their own benefit.

3. The Challenge of Re-Education
True communism has never been realized because it requires a fundamental transformation in human consciousness—a spiritual or ethical re-education.

The ruling class clings to economic hierarchy.
The working class has been conditioned to accept wage labor as “natural.”
Attempts to impose communism from the top down have failed.
Jesus’ teachings offer a blueprint for that transformation—not through forced government policy, but through voluntary communal action. If history has shown that forced communism fails, then its actualization must emerge organically, as individuals and communities reject capitalist exploitation and embrace economic justice.

Conclusion: A Voluntary Path to Communism
If communism is ever to be actualized, it cannot come through state enforcement or violent revolution. Instead, it must emerge through moral and ethical awakening, where people choose to create systems that prioritize human need over profit.

And what better historical example of this kind of grassroots economic transformation than Jesus and the early Christian communities?

Marke: Communists never invoke Christianity as necessary to peace, safety and contentment.

[oldbadger]

I suppose leftists must think Jesus opposes Christians retiring in modern America.

You suppose?
That's part of the problem..... I think greedy Christians have almost completely reversed what Jesus said and did through supposition.

[marke]

I suppose leftists must think Jesus opposes Christians retiring in modern America.

You suppose?
That's part of the problem..... I think greedy Christians have almost completely reversed what Jesus said and did through supposition.

Jesus did not advocate robbing the rich to buy the poor out of poverty.

Matthew 26:10-12
King James Version
10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #61]

Proletariat-benefitting communism is a lie promoted by greedy and wicked tyrants for personal gain.

That's exactly why communism doesn't benefit the proletariat, as socialist writer George Orwell illustrated in Animal Farm.

Capitalism provides the job opportunities for greater growth in accumulated wealth among employees

That's free market theory, which does not carry over into free market practice.

The result of the failed socialist experiment in Jerusalem resulted in this:
Romans 15:26
For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

If it was a "failed socialist experiment", why does Acts 4 tell us that it had God's blessing?

And why didn't Peter side with Ananias?

whether by workers banding together in unions to demand greater riches from those they seek to fleece for their own selfish advantages

What hogwash. Workers do not band together in unions to demand "greater riches" for "selfish advantages". Workers band together in unions to demand decent wages, fair treatment and safe working conditions. If it weren't for unions and labor laws, we would probably still have children slaving away in dangerous factories for pennies.

And even if workers did demand greater riches, they would certainly be more entitled to those riches than would executives who never get any closer to a workplace than sailing their yachts past a fishing boat.

Communists never invoke Christianity

The first Christians did invoke communism.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #63]

"For ye have the poor always with you"

Here we come to the real issue, don't we? Jesus declares that there will always be poor people, so if poverty were eliminated it would falsify a declaration of Jesus. To avoid that, poverty must be maintained.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #63]

"For ye have the poor always with you"

Here we come to the real issue, don't we? Jesus declares that there will always be poor people, so if poverty were eliminated it would falsify a declaration of Jesus. To avoid that, poverty must be maintained.

Unlike leftists, Jesus did not preach redistribution of wealth as if communism could cure poverty. In actuality, communism spreads poverty while doing nothing to mitigate it.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #61]

Proletariat-benefitting communism is a lie promoted by greedy and wicked tyrants for personal gain.

That's exactly why communism doesn't benefit the proletariat, as socialist writer George Orwell illustrated in Animal Farm.

Capitalism provides the job opportunities for greater growth in accumulated wealth among employees

That's free market theory, which does not carry over into free market practice.

The result of the failed socialist experiment in Jerusalem resulted in this:
Romans 15:26
For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

If it was a "failed socialist experiment", why does Acts 4 tell us that it had God's blessing?

And why didn't Peter side with Ananias?

whether by workers banding together in unions to demand greater riches from those they seek to fleece for their own selfish advantages

What hogwash. Workers do not band together in unions to demand "greater riches" for "selfish advantages". Workers band together in unions to demand decent wages, fair treatment and safe working conditions. If it weren't for unions and labor laws, we would probably still have children slaving away in dangerous factories for pennies.

And even if workers did demand greater riches, they would certainly be more entitled to those riches than would executives who never get any closer to a workplace than sailing their yachts past a fishing boat.

Communists never invoke Christianity

The first Christians did invoke communism.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #61]

Proletariat-benefitting communism is a lie promoted by greedy and wicked tyrants for personal gain.

That's exactly why communism doesn't benefit the proletariat, as socialist writer George Orwell illustrated in Animal Farm.

Capitalism provides the job opportunities for greater growth in accumulated wealth among employees

That's free market theory, which does not carry over into free market practice.

The result of the failed socialist experiment in Jerusalem resulted in this:
Romans 15:26
For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

If it was a "failed socialist experiment", why does Acts 4 tell us that it had God's blessing?

And why didn't Peter side with Ananias?

whether by workers banding together in unions to demand greater riches from those they seek to fleece for their own selfish advantages

What hogwash. Workers do not band together in unions to demand "greater riches" for "selfish advantages". Workers band together in unions to demand decent wages, fair treatment and safe working conditions. If it weren't for unions and labor laws, we would probably still have children slaving away in dangerous factories for pennies.

And even if workers did demand greater riches, they would certainly be more entitled to those riches than would executives who never get any closer to a workplace than sailing their yachts past a fishing boat.

Communists never invoke Christianity

The first Christians did invoke communism.

Marke: No poor nation on earth has government protections of free market capitalism. Go figure.

AI
While it's not common to find "poor nations" with fully implemented free market capitalism, some developing countries like Singapore, Botswana, and Taiwan are considered examples of previously poor nations that embraced free market policies and experienced significant economic growth, leading to substantial poverty reduction; however, it's important to note that even these countries often have some level of government intervention in their economies.

The Guardian
As the world shifted to free markets, poverty rates plummeted
Nov 13, 2018 — Once very poor places such as Singapore, Taiwan and Botswana, or relatively poor places such as Ireland, experienced m...

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #66]

Jesus did not preach redistribution of wealth

Of course not----that's why he told a young rich man to take all that he had and put it into a high-interest CD.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #68]

No poor nation on earth has government protections of free market capitalism.

This is what happens when free market capitalism has government protections:

https://inequality.org/article/what-wou ... ng-richer/

https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/is ... nequality/


People buy into this because capitalism is a religion which proclaims that affluence is the highest virtue and that the poor must always be blamed for their own poverty. It's the worship of the god Mammon if ever there was such.