Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #29]

Americans do not need the high taxation cost of socialism that European nations must pay just to care for their own people

That taxation is what cares for their people. European workers pay their taxes into their government and their government uses their money to meet their needs. Their government works for them. And Europeans are mature enough to know that they don't have to be rich to be happy.

Conservative Americans do not favor giving up their wealth and freedoms to fund a socialist government's need for money and control.

No nation can make low earning poor people rich by robbing higher earners of their wealth.

"Higher earners" don't earn their wealth. Workers produce wealth with their work and workplace owners take it all and give back to workers just enough in meager wages to keep them going.

You are describing a communist government that tells its workers what jobs to work, how much they will be paid, and how to live their lives. In free market America workers and bosses negotiate pay arrangements that are not binding because workers do not have to accept conditions they do not agree with.


And again, socialism isn't about making anyone rich; it's about making everyone economically secure.

I don't want the government taking lions' portions of my wealth so they can somehow afford to provide me with some sort of degenerate low-level economic security. I like competing in the free market while risking losing everything on a gamble that I could win all the wealth I need on my own without having to depend on the government to feed and clothe me.

George Orwell was an atheist commie.

"Orwell believed that Stalinist communism was a threat to Western social democracy and civilisation and felt strongly that this must be guarded against."
https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ge ... %20against.

Orwell did not serve as someone Christians should follow for good advice.


Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. (Acts 4:32)
Were the first Christians "theist commies"?

Early Christians experimented with communism and failed, motivating Paul to travel all over the known world taking up offerings to feed the poor people in Jerusalem who became victims of that failure of their communist experiment.


Romans 15:26
For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #31]

Early Christians experimented with communism and failed, motivating Paul to travel all over the known world taking up offerings to feed the poor people in Jerusalem who became victims of that failure of their communist experiment.

If it failed, does that mean it was wrong? If it was wrong, why did Peter get so upset with Anannias for not going along with it?

[otseng]

George Orwell was an atheist commie.

Moderator Comment

Please avoid making unproductive one-liners and personal unsupported comments.

Please review the Rules.





______________



Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[marke]

George Orwell was an atheist commie.

Moderator Comment

Please avoid making unproductive one-liners and personal unsupported comments.

Please review the Rules.





______________



Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Was George Orwell an atheist? Was he a communist?

AI Overview
Learn more
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... P8Fh64q5hV
George Orwell was an agnostic who rejected religious belief, but he was also baptized into the Anglican Church as a child. He was vehemently anti-Catholic and considered the Catholic Church to be parasitic.

https://www.neh.gov/article/george-orwe ... itarianism.
As a self-described democratic socialist, Orwell believed in active government, yet his alertness to the excesses of official power informed Animal Farm and 1984, his two masterpieces about totalitarianism.

Do communists see socialism as a precurser to communism?
Did Vladimir Lenin say the goal of socialism is communism?
History shows that when socialism is tried it leads to three things: poverty, devastation and ultimately communism. As Vladimir Lenin once said, “The goal of socialism is communism.”

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #34]

Was George Orwell an atheist? Was he a communist?

I've already pointed out that Orwell wasn't a communist, and whether or not he was an atheist is irrelevant.

Do communists see socialism as a precurser to communism?
Did Vladimir Lenin say the goal of socialism is communism?
History shows that when socialism is tried it leads to three things: poverty, devastation and ultimately communism. As Vladimir Lenin once said, “The goal of socialism is communism.”

How communists define socialism is also irrelevant.

[oldbadger]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

If I could just answer your main question, yes, Jesus and old testament laws both were socialist systems, absolutely, and both were devoted to 'care for all'.

[Purple Knight]

[Replying to marke in post #31]

Early Christians experimented with communism and failed, motivating Paul to travel all over the known world taking up offerings to feed the poor people in Jerusalem who became victims of that failure of their communist experiment.

If it failed, does that mean it was wrong? If it was wrong, why did Peter get so upset with Anannias for not going along with it?

Fails when people say, "communism fails" means people ending up with less. Sometimes drastically. Then they overturn the system and opt for something else, especially if they start to starve.

We also end up with less because we imprison criminals rather than quickly executing them. We also end up with less because scams are allowed as long as nobody punches anybody - buyer beware. We also end up with less because of the medical insurance industry, who take their guaranteed cash and make accessing care a lottery at best and impossible at worst, yes sometimes even killing people who could have been saved. Yet all these ways we end up with less are tolerated and even celebrated rather than overturned, because they are assumed to be righteous and necessary.

[William]

Socialism is the placeholder whereby Capitalism is engaged in finding how to build Communism. I do not think there has ever been a truly Communist system running a country but rather these countries calling themselves Communist, are really applying Capitalism with an undertone of Socialism which is enlisted on the promise/premise of eventually leading to Communism but this so far has never actually eventuated.

[Athetotheist]

Socialism is the placeholder whereby Capitalism is engaged in finding how to build Communism. I do not think there has ever been a truly Communist system running a country but rather these countries calling themselves Communist, are really applying Capitalism with an undertone of Socialism which is enlisted on the promise/premise of eventually leading to Communism but this so far has never actually eventuated.

Communism and capitalism are essentially extreme ends of a spectrum. By de-privatizing the means of production and converting those means into public property, socialism proposes the freeing of labor to be its own management while recognizing the private property rights of citizens.

[marke]

Socialism is the placeholder whereby Capitalism is engaged in finding how to build Communism. I do not think there has ever been a truly Communist system running a country but rather these countries calling themselves Communist, are really applying Capitalism with an undertone of Socialism which is enlisted on the promise/premise of eventually leading to Communism but this so far has never actually eventuated.

Communism and capitalism are essentially extreme ends of a spectrum. By de-privatizing the means of production and converting those means into public property, socialism proposes the freeing of labor to be its own management while recognizing the private property rights of citizens.

Socialism and communism appeal to poorer people desiring greater advantages, benefits, and income at the expense of others.