Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

[William]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #20]

But is that what Jesus was saying to everyone? And if everyone was doing what Jesus was saying, who would "slap" anyone anyway?
So the "problem" cannot be how you explain it, but rather, that there are those who resist even wanting to properly envision what system Jesus had in mind for humans and how a world might look if it were to be a proper interpretation of what Jesus had in mind.

This gets close to the understanding I was trying to have people come to in this thread:

I was aiming for that.

This gets close to the understanding I was trying to have people come to in this thread: There will always be people who do not do as the law instructs. If turning the other cheek was the law - do not retaliate against assault - people who want to hit people would move there.

Unless they were somehow prevented in doing so, which then harkens to the story in Revelation - where this "Kingdom" could thrive without the hitters....if memory serves me well.
But until such a thing occurs (re Revelation) there appears to be no chance in such taking root in any current social-cultural-political system.

Socialism has some bad second-tier effects too, though first-tier, it's a perfect system to just use what we have to take care of everybody, if we have enough. Those pesky after-effects include people becoming lazy and overbreeding.

I am still not convinced Jesus was talking socialism. Other aspects of his overall message are not encouraging of laziness and unfettered reproducing.

What is it with current socialism examples laziness and reproducing?

Turning the other cheek similarly looks good on paper, but because anyone may hit you and you're encouraged to let it happen, it doesn't work in reality. You can say it's moral, and no one can really refute it, but other than people who want to hit others and have no threat of retaliation, no one would want to live in a place where retaliation was illegal.

Thus doe such a system actually exist, and is such a system what Jesus was encouraging us to at least contemplate?

I don't think so myself.

[boatsnguitars]

Which political system supports slavery? That's the one Jesus supported.

In context, Jesus supported the idea of humans serving one another, which strictly speaking is not a known "political system" which can be pointed out (from all the political systems we do know of) and declared as "This is what Jesus supported!".

Respectfully, Jesus said a lot of things. He wasn't always preaching 'service to others.' In some cases he was telling his supporters to take up swords, or obey ones masters (even if that didn't provide proper, good service), or telling people to pluck out eyes, or lying about eternal life, etc. Let's face it, Jesus was not a Philosopher, political or otherwise. He was a cult leader who rambled on about some good and bad ideas.

[boatsnguitars]

Which political system supports slavery? That's the one Jesus supported.

In context, Jesus supported the idea of humans serving one another, which strictly speaking is not a known "political system" which can be pointed out (from all the political systems we do know of) and declared as "This is what Jesus supported!".

Respectfully, Jesus said a lot of things. He wasn't always preaching 'service to others.' In some cases he was telling his supporters to take up swords, or obey ones masters (even if that didn't provide proper, good service), or telling people to pluck out eyes, or lying about eternal life, etc. Let's face it, Jesus was not a Philosopher, political or otherwise. He was a cult leader who rambled on about some good and bad ideas.

It's important we don't picture Jesus as some genius who understood complex topics like Economics, Politics, Psychology, Science, Sociology, Biology, etc.
He was a very standard itinerate preacher who had a short career, and died. The ideas he espoused preceded him for the most part, though he may have a few sayings that he came up with. His death made him more important than he really was, and the religion that formed around him benefitted from the new technology (copying/scribes). We have to stop creating heroes where none exist.

[marke]

Which political system supports slavery? That's the one Jesus supported.

Jesus did not support slavery and neither did He support tyrany. Unbelievers promote government enforcement of socialism and communism which is being promoted and supported by the devil's followers in preparation for the one world WEF rule of the antichrist.

[William]

Which political system supports slavery? That's the one Jesus supported.

Jesus did not support slavery and neither did He support tyrany. Unbelievers promote government enforcement of socialism and communism which is being promoted and supported by the devil's followers in preparation for the one world WEF rule of the antichrist.

Interpretations of data are not proof those interpretations are irrefutable facts.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #24]

Unbelievers promote government enforcement of socialism and communism

Socialism and communism are not the same. Communism eliminates private property. Socialism does not.

....which is being promoted and supported by the devil's followers in preparation for the one world WEF rule of the antichrist.

Being a socialist and being a Christian are in no way incompatible.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christian-Socialism

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #24]

Unbelievers promote government enforcement of socialism and communism

Socialism and communism are not the same. Communism eliminates private property. Socialism does not.

....which is being promoted and supported by the devil's followers in preparation for the one world WEF rule of the antichrist.

Being a socialist and being a Christian are in no way incompatible.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christian-Socialism

Socialism and communism are two unjust forms of government with the same goals, results, and oppressive characteristics.

"Socialism is the same as Communism, ... ard Shaw
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
- Winston Churchill.

"As we’ve learned from countless examples throughout history, including now Venezuela, the main difference between capitalism and socialism is this: Capitalism works."
- Mark J. Perry.

"For us, there is no valid definition of socialism other than the abolition of the exploitation of one human being by another."
- Che Guevara.

What do you think of this quote from Alexander Trachtenberg, from the National Convention of Communist Parties in 1944? : r/VaushV (reddit.com)
What do you think of this quote from Alexander Trachtenberg, from the National Convention of Communist Parties in 1944?

"When we get ready to take the United States, we will not take it under the label of Communism; we will not take it under the label of Socialism. These labels are unpleasant to the American people, and have been speared too much. We will take the United States under labels we have made very lovable; we will take it under “Liberalism,” under “Progressivism,” under “Democracy.” But take it we will."
~ Alexander Trachtenberg, at the National Convention of Communist Parties, Madison Square Garden, 1944

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #27]

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
- Winston Churchill.

A capitalist definition of socialism.

"As we’ve learned from countless examples throughout history, including now Venezuela....

Critics of socialism always point to Venezuela (the long history of US interference with Latin American politics is conveniently ignored). Never brought up are the socialistic features of countries like Denmark. Those same critics declare that Denmark isn't socialist, but when it's suggested that we adopt their style of health care or education, what's shouted from the rooftops of US punditry? "SOCIALISM!!!"

....the main difference between capitalism and socialism is this: Capitalism works."
- Mark J. Perry.

The main difference between capitalism and socialism is that capitalism works for the rich.

"For us, there is no valid definition of socialism other than the abolition of the exploitation of one human being by another."
- Che Guevara.

An aspiring reformer who placed too much trust in Soviet leaders, but one can hardly take issue with the sentiment he expresses here.

"When we get ready to take the United States, we will not take it under the label of Communism; we will not take it under the label of Socialism. These labels are unpleasant to the American people, and have been speared too much. We will take the United States under labels we have made very lovable; we will take it under “Liberalism,” under “Progressivism,” under “Democracy.” But take it we will."
~ Alexander Trachtenberg, at the National Convention of Communist Parties, Madison Square Garden, 1944

Trachtenberg was another aspiring reformer who fell in with the Soviet leaders. I've read Animal Farm, so I'm familiar with the danger of social reform being commandeered by those with personal ambitions.

By the way----Animal Farm was written by George Orwell. George Orwell was a socialist.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #27]

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
- Winston Churchill.

A capitalist definition of socialism.

Yes, and a good description of the evils of socialism it is.

"As we’ve learned from countless examples throughout history, including now Venezuela....

Critics of socialism always point to Venezuela (the long history of US interference with Latin American politics is conveniently ignored). Never brought up are the socialistic features of countries like Denmark. Those same critics declare that Denmark isn't socialist, but when it's suggested that we adopt their style of health care or education, what's shouted from the rooftops of US punditry? "SOCIALISM!!!"

I agree that US crooks like George Soros played a big part in stealing elections in Venezuela in order to turn the country socialist and rob their wealth for themselves just like the same crooks have been attempting to do in the US. Americans do not need the high taxation cost of socialism that European nations must pay just to care for their own people, while US socialists want to pay for even higher percentages of non-working and non-productive dependents in the US with even higher taxes.

....the main difference between capitalism and socialism is this: Capitalism works."
- Mark J. Perry.

The main difference between capitalism and socialism is that capitalism works for the rich.

No nation can make low earning poor people rich by robbing higher earners of their wealth.

"For us, there is no valid definition of socialism other than the abolition of the exploitation of one human being by another."
- Che Guevara.

An aspiring reformer who placed too much trust in Soviet leaders, but one can hardly take issue with the sentiment he expresses here.

Commies do like to think taking away other peoples freedom and wealth would greatly benefit the poor, even though the only ones who are greatly increased in wealth are the commie tyrants in charge.

"When we get ready to take the United States, we will not take it under the label of Communism; we will not take it under the label of Socialism. These labels are unpleasant to the American people, and have been speared too much. We will take the United States under labels we have made very lovable; we will take it under “Liberalism,” under “Progressivism,” under “Democracy.” But take it we will."
~ Alexander Trachtenberg, at the National Convention of Communist Parties, Madison Square Garden, 1944

Trachtenberg was another aspiring reformer who fell in with the Soviet leaders. I've read Animal Farm, so I'm familiar with the danger of social reform being commandeered by those with personal ambitions.

There has never been a commie who did not personally gain by promoting socialism at other people's great loss of freedom and wealth.

By the way----Animal Farm was written by George Orwell. George Orwell was a socialist.

George Orwell was an atheist commie.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #29]

Americans do not need the high taxation cost of socialism that European nations must pay just to care for their own people

That taxation is what cares for their people. European workers pay their taxes into their government and their government uses their money to meet their needs. Their government works for them. And Europeans are mature enough to know that they don't have to be rich to be happy.

No nation can make low earning poor people rich by robbing higher earners of their wealth.

"Higher earners" don't earn their wealth. Workers produce wealth with their work and workplace owners take it all and give back to workers just enough in meager wages to keep them going.

And again, socialism isn't about making anyone rich; it's about making everyone economically secure.

George Orwell was an atheist commie.

"Orwell believed that Stalinist communism was a threat to Western social democracy and civilisation and felt strongly that this must be guarded against."
https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ge ... %20against.


Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. (Acts 4:32)

Were the first Christians "theist commies"?