Is Christmas 'pagan'?

[historia]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

[William]

[Replying to historia in post #39]

By 'pagan' here I mean beliefs and practices relating to ancient, ethnic religions other than Judaism.

JehovahsWitness offered a broader definition above:

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I believe the origins of a celebration can disqualify it as a suitable celebration for Christians regardless of how it is presently viewed. In short, biblically, Christians cannot claim, rename and rebrand a pagan celebration and in doing so "sanctify" it to a higher purpose.

Viewing something as "pagan" if any of its features have links to non-Christian origins—provides a framework that could be applied not only to Christmas but also to the story of Christ itself. If we examine the narrative of Christ through this lens, we can indeed identify certain elements that resonate with pre-existing pagan beliefs or mythologies. Here's a detailed analysis:

1. Virgin Birth:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Egyptian Mythology: Horus, born of the virgin Isis, is often cited as a precursor to the virgin birth narrative.
Greek Mythology: Perseus was born to Danaë, impregnated by Zeus in the form of a golden shower.
Roman Mythology: Romulus and Remus, founders of Rome, had a divine lineage attributed to Mars, the god of war.
Implications for JW’s Definition:

The concept of a miraculous or virgin birth is not unique to Christianity and may reflect a broader cultural motif of divine figures being born in extraordinary ways.

2. Resurrection and Immortality:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Osiris (Egyptian Mythology): Osiris was resurrected by Isis after being killed and dismembered, symbolizing rebirth and eternal life.
Mithras (Persian/Roman Cults): Mithras’ death and return to life were celebrated in some variations of the mystery religion.
Adonis (Greek Mythology): Adonis, associated with death and rebirth, was mourned and celebrated cyclically in ancient Greek rituals.
Implications for JW’s Definition:

The idea of dying and rising gods predates Christianity and suggests thematic parallels that could be labeled as "pagan" under JW’s reasoning.

3. Sacrificial Death:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Sacrificial Kingship: Many ancient cultures, including the Celts and Mesoamericans, had rituals involving the sacrificial death of a king or representative to ensure fertility, renewal, or divine favor.
Prometheus (Greek Mythology): Prometheus’ suffering for humanity (chained to a rock, liver eaten by an eagle daily) mirrors themes of self-sacrifice for the greater good.
Implications for JW’s Definition:

Christ’s sacrificial death could be viewed as part of a universal mythological archetype rather than entirely unique to Christianity.

4. Symbolism of Light and Birth of a Savior:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Sol Invictus (Roman Religion): The celebration of the "unconquered sun" on December 25th symbolizes the rebirth of light, paralleling the Christian imagery of Christ as the "light of the world."
Zoroastrianism: The savior figure Saoshyant was prophesied to bring salvation and renewal to the world, echoing messianic themes in Christianity.

Implications re JW definition:

The alignment of Christ's nativity with motifs of light and savior figures could be classified as having "pagan" origins.

5. Baptism and Water Rituals:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Mystery Religions: Baptism-like purification rites were practiced in mystery religions such as those dedicated to Isis, Mithras, and Dionysus.
Hinduism: Ritual immersion in sacred rivers predates Christianity and serves as a form of spiritual cleansing.

Implications re your JW definition:

The symbolism of water and baptism in Christianity echoes these earlier practices.

6. The Eucharist (Communal Meal):
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Mithraic Rituals: The followers of Mithras participated in a sacred communal meal involving bread and wine, symbolizing unity with the deity.
Dionysian Cults: Wine, symbolizing the blood of Dionysus, was central to rituals celebrating the god’s presence in the material world.

Implications for JW’s Definition:

The Eucharist could be interpreted as incorporating motifs from earlier sacred meal traditions.
JW's Framework Applied to Christ’s Story:

Under the Jehovah's Witness Religion's reasoning, these parallels could render aspects of the Christ narrative "pagan" because they reflect themes, symbols, or practices present in pre-Christian cultures.

Challenges re this reasoning:
Shared Human Archetypes:

Many of these "pagan" elements could reflect universal human archetypes rather than direct borrowing. Myths and rituals often address common existential themes, such as birth, death, renewal, and salvation.

Theological Reinterpretation:

Christianity often repurposes existing symbols, infusing them with new meanings that align with its theology (e.g., Christ as the fulfillment of archetypal savior figures).

Historical Context:

The presence of similar themes does not necessarily imply derivation; independent cultural evolution could explain parallel developments.

Conclusion:
The "JW" framework leads to identifying numerous "pagan" elements in the story of Christ when traced back to earlier traditions. However, whether this diminishes their validity within Christianity depends on whether one views these elements as inherently pagan or as universals reinterpreted within a Christian context.
______________________

My thoughts re that - if Jehovah is as claimed, why would He use and refine pre existing beliefs as pointers, rather than produce something purely unique to any prior form of human belief systems?

What would be the overall “pointer” explanation for this being the case?

1. Incarnational Theology. (Meeting Humanity Where They Are.)
2. Humanity’s Innate Search for God
3. Respect for Free Will and Human Agency
4. Historical and Cultural Integration
5. The Ultimate Goal Transformation Over Novelty?
6. Mystery and Humility

Summary of the overall points re the "pointer".
Jehovah's engagement with pre-existing beliefs might not reflect a lack of originality but rather a deliberate strategy to:

Meet humanity where they are culturally and spiritually.
Build on universal human archetypes that reflect deep, shared longings.
Allow for free will, gradual understanding, and personal transformation.
Demonstrate continuity and sovereignty over all history and cultures.
Focus on transformation and fulfillment rather than novelty.
In this view, the use of pre-existing systems as pointers underscores God’s relational nature and His desire to draw humanity to Himself in a way that is both accessible and transformative.

All JW stance I have encountered tells me that such stance causes a struggle to reconcile within those practitioners. The struggle appears real. It leaves me wondering if they really know the one they claim to be witnessing (on behalf of).

[onewithhim]

The traditions of Christmas are pagan and are part of the "darkness."

What historical evidence do you think supports this claim?

Look up the origins of the traditions. You can see in many publications, esp. around Christmas time, that the customs of Christmas are of pagan origin. I would think that any encyclopedia will have such information. Everything from the tree to kissing under the mistletoe is of pagan origin. Even the date of the celebration! M'Clintock and Strong's Cyclopoedia says: "The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the NT, or, indeed, from any other source." )New York, 1871, Vol.II, p.276. The Encyclopedia Americana says: "The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the Winter Solstice when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the 'rebirth of the sun.'...The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time, and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration." 1977, Vol.6, p.666. The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: "Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong in Rome." 1967, Vol III, p.656.

Could not customs from pagan celebrations be considered "darkness?" Isn't anything pagan darkness? "Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?" (II Corinth. 6:14, NASB)

[historia]

The traditions of Christmas are pagan and are part of the "darkness."

What historical evidence do you think supports this claim?

Look up the origins of the traditions.

I have. And, as far as I can tell, virtually every Christmas custom observed today does not go back to 'pagan' origins.

You can see in many publications, esp. around Christmas time, that the customs of Christmas are of pagan origin. I would think that any encyclopedia will have such information.

Indeed, as I mentioned in the OP, it's not hard to find people claiming Christmas has pagan origins. What you will invariably not find in these publications, however, is any historical evidence to substantiate such claims. Notice you didn't provide any either.

As I noted above to JehovahsWitness, you can also find some older encyclopedia articles written by non-experts repeating 19th Century speculation that Christmas has pagan origins. But, to my knowledge, modern encyclopedia articles written by actual experts do not make this claim, as the evidence for it is lacking.

The Encyclopedia Americana says: "The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the Winter Solstice when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the 'rebirth of the sun.'...The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time, and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration." 1977, Vol.6, p.666.

This entry for 'Christmas' in this old Encyclopedia Americana set was written by a woman named Marguerite Ickis. She was not an historian or scholar of religion. In fact, she held no academic position whatsoever. She is best known for writing some books on recreation and arts and crafts.

In other words, she was not an expert on the history of Christmas, and, as the parts bolded above suggest, she was merely repeating speculation about the origins of Christmas.

If you're placing your trust in the accuracy of these statements, let me assure you it is misplaced.

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #42]

Could not customs from pagan celebrations be considered "darkness?" Isn't anything pagan darkness?

A recent post by a Jehovah's Witness...

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I believe the origins of a celebration can disqualify it as a suitable celebration for Christians regardless of how it is presently viewed. In short, biblically, Christians cannot claim, rename and rebrand a pagan celebration and in doing so "sanctify" it to a higher purpose.

The renaming and rebranding of Pagan beliefs is the foundation of Christianity.

Viewing something as "pagan" if any of its features have links to non-Christian origins—provides a framework that could be applied not only to Christmas but also to the story of Christ itself. If we examine the narrative of Christ through this lens, we can indeed identify certain elements that resonate with pre-existing pagan beliefs or mythologies. Here's a detailed analysis:

1. Virgin Birth:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Egyptian Mythology: Horus, born of the virgin Isis, is often cited as a precursor to the virgin birth narrative.
Greek Mythology: Perseus was born to Danaë, impregnated by Zeus in the form of a golden shower.
Roman Mythology: Romulus and Remus, founders of Rome, had a divine lineage attributed to Mars, the god of war.
Implications for JW’s Definition:

The concept of a miraculous or virgin birth is not unique to Christianity and may reflect a broader cultural motif of divine figures being born in extraordinary ways.

2. Resurrection and Immortality:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Osiris (Egyptian Mythology): Osiris was resurrected by Isis after being killed and dismembered, symbolizing rebirth and eternal life.
Mithras (Persian/Roman Cults): Mithras’ death and return to life were celebrated in some variations of the mystery religion.
Adonis (Greek Mythology): Adonis, associated with death and rebirth, was mourned and celebrated cyclically in ancient Greek rituals.
Implications for JW’s Definition:

The idea of dying and rising gods predates Christianity and suggests thematic parallels that could be labeled as "pagan" under JW’s reasoning.

3. Sacrificial Death:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Sacrificial Kingship: Many ancient cultures, including the Celts and Mesoamericans, had rituals involving the sacrificial death of a king or representative to ensure fertility, renewal, or divine favor.
Prometheus (Greek Mythology): Prometheus’ suffering for humanity (chained to a rock, liver eaten by an eagle daily) mirrors themes of self-sacrifice for the greater good.
Implications for JW’s Definition:

Christ’s sacrificial death could be viewed as part of a universal mythological archetype rather than entirely unique to Christianity.

4. Symbolism of Light and Birth of a Savior:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Sol Invictus (Roman Religion): The celebration of the "unconquered sun" on December 25th symbolizes the rebirth of light, paralleling the Christian imagery of Christ as the "light of the world."
Zoroastrianism: The savior figure Saoshyant was prophesied to bring salvation and renewal to the world, echoing messianic themes in Christianity.

Implications re JW definition:

The alignment of Christ's nativity with motifs of light and savior figures could be classified as having "pagan" origins.

5. Baptism and Water Rituals:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Mystery Religions: Baptism-like purification rites were practiced in mystery religions such as those dedicated to Isis, Mithras, and Dionysus.
Hinduism: Ritual immersion in sacred rivers predates Christianity and serves as a form of spiritual cleansing.

Implications re your JW definition:

The symbolism of water and baptism in Christianity echoes these earlier practices.

6. The Eucharist (Communal Meal):
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Mithraic Rituals: The followers of Mithras participated in a sacred communal meal involving bread and wine, symbolizing unity with the deity.
Dionysian Cults: Wine, symbolizing the blood of Dionysus, was central to rituals celebrating the god’s presence in the material world.

Implications for JW’s Definition:

The Eucharist could be interpreted as incorporating motifs from earlier sacred meal traditions.
JW's Framework Applied to Christ’s Story:

Under the Jehovah's Witness Religion's reasoning, these parallels could render aspects of the Christ narrative "pagan" because they reflect themes, symbols, or practices present in pre-Christian cultures.

Challenges re this reasoning:
Shared Human Archetypes:

Many of these "pagan" elements could reflect universal human archetypes rather than direct borrowing. Myths and rituals often address common existential themes, such as birth, death, renewal, and salvation.

Theological Reinterpretation:

Christianity repurposes existing symbols, infusing them with new meanings that align with its theology (e.g., Christ as the fulfillment of archetypal savior figures).

[onewithhim]

The traditions of Christmas are pagan and are part of the "darkness."

What historical evidence do you think supports this claim?

Look up the origins of the traditions.

I have. And, as far as I can tell, virtually every Christmas custom observed today does not go back to 'pagan' origins.

You can see in many publications, esp. around Christmas time, that the customs of Christmas are of pagan origin. I would think that any encyclopedia will have such information.

Indeed, as I mentioned in the OP, it's not hard to find people claiming Christmas has pagan origins. What you will invariably not find in these publications, however, is any historical evidence to substantiate such claims. Notice you didn't provide any either.

As I noted above to JehovahsWitness, you can also find some older encyclopedia articles written by non-experts repeating 19th Century speculation that Christmas has pagan origins. But, to my knowledge, modern encyclopedia articles written by actual experts do not make this claim, as the evidence for it is lacking.

The Encyclopedia Americana says: "The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the Winter Solstice when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the 'rebirth of the sun.'...The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time, and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration." 1977, Vol.6, p.666.

This entry for 'Christmas' in this old Encyclopedia Americana set was written by a woman named Marguerite Ickis. She was not an historian or scholar of religion. In fact, she held no academic position whatsoever. She is best known for writing some books on recreation and arts and crafts.

In other words, she was not an expert on the history of Christmas, and, as the parts bolded above suggest, she was merely repeating speculation about the origins of Christmas.

If you're placing your trust in the accuracy of these statements, let me assure you it is misplaced.

Regardless of Ms. Ickis' statement, the Bible does not give the date of Jesus' birth, and Jews didn't celebrate birthdays anyway. McClintock and Strong's Cyclopedia states: "The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT origin."

The Encyclopedia Britannica brings out that "Tree worship, common among the pagan Europeans, survived after their conversion to Christianity. One of the ways in which tree worship survived is in the custom of 'placing a Yule tree at the entrance or inside the house in the midwinter holidays.'"

There are other statements about Christmas rituals, but to me just the above two would convince me not to celebrate Christmas. I'm going to look up online "Yule" and see what I can find. I have seen that it is very pagan--something important to the Vikings.

I just looked up "Yuletide" and it is very interesting. There is a lot there to say that it is connected to pagan rituals, and many of the trappings of Christmas such as lighting candles and hanging Mistletoe were to ward off evil spirits. It's worth checking out.

[historia]

the Bible does not give the date of Jesus' birth, and Jews didn't celebrate birthdays anyway.

Okay, but so what?

As I mentioned above, no one is claiming that Jesus was actually born on December 25. Nor is Christmas a simple "birthday celebration." It is, rather, the day Christians have chosen to observe the feast of the Nativity, a religious observance celebrating the Incarnation, or Christ coming into the world.

Ancient Jews and Christians also didn't hold annual celebrations on the date someone got baptized. But Christians did develop an annual feast celebrating Jesus' baptism, on January 6, because any event in the life of Christ holds special significance.

Why can't Christians choose to celebrate these events that are described in the Bible?

The Encyclopedia Britannica brings out that "Tree worship, common among the pagan Europeans, survived after their conversion to Christianity. One of the ways in which tree worship survived is in the custom of 'placing a Yule tree at the entrance or inside the house in the midwinter holidays.'"

And here's what the very next sentence in that Encyclopedia Britannica article says:

The modern Christmas tree, though, originated in western Germany. The main prop of a popular medieval play about Adam and Eve was a "paradise tree," a fir tree hung with apples, that represented the Garden of Eden. The Germans set up a paradise tree in their homes on December 24, the religious feast day of Adam and Eve.

In other words, the Christmas tree as we know it has nothing to do with ancient pagan customs. Instead, it originated in the early 16th Century, based on the story of Adam and Eve. In other words, this is a Christian custom, not a pagan one.

I'm going to look up online "Yule" and see what I can find. I have seen that it is very pagan--something important to the Vikings.

I just looked up "Yuletide" and it is very interesting. There is a lot there to say that it is connected to pagan rituals, and many of the trappings of Christmas such as lighting candles and hanging Mistletoe were to ward off evil spirits. It's worth checking out.

If you're truly interested in "Yule," may I suggest this article, "Concerning Yule," written by Peter Gainsford, a scholar of classics. Notice how, unlike other popular-level articles you find on this topic on the Internet, Gainsford actually surveys the historical sources and engages with modern scholarship.

Based on that, he concludes:

There’s virtually nothing pagan about modern western Christmas customs. But at the same time, nearly all modern Christmas customs are exactly that -- modern . . . The only bits of Christmas that are ancient are the bits that happen in church.

Like I said above, when we look at the actual historical evidence, the claims that Christmas are pagan don't really hold up.

[onewithhim]

the Bible does not give the date of Jesus' birth, and Jews didn't celebrate birthdays anyway.

Okay, but so what?

As I mentioned above, no one is claiming that Jesus was actually born on December 25. Nor is Christmas a simple "birthday celebration." It is, rather, the day Christians have chosen to observe the feast of the Nativity, a religious observance celebrating the Incarnation, or Christ coming into the world.

Ancient Jews and Christians also didn't hold annual celebrations on the date someone got baptized. But Christians did develop an annual feast celebrating Jesus' baptism, on January 6, because any event in the life of Christ holds special significance.

Why can't Christians choose to celebrate these events that are described in the Bible?

The Encyclopedia Britannica brings out that "Tree worship, common among the pagan Europeans, survived after their conversion to Christianity. One of the ways in which tree worship survived is in the custom of 'placing a Yule tree at the entrance or inside the house in the midwinter holidays.'"

And here's what the very next sentence in that Encyclopedia Britannica article says:

The modern Christmas tree, though, originated in western Germany. The main prop of a popular medieval play about Adam and Eve was a "paradise tree," a fir tree hung with apples, that represented the Garden of Eden. The Germans set up a paradise tree in their homes on December 24, the religious feast day of Adam and Eve.

In other words, the Christmas tree as we know it has nothing to do with ancient pagan customs. Instead, it originated in the early 16th Century, based on the story of Adam and Eve. In other words, this is a Christian custom, not a pagan one.

I'm going to look up online "Yule" and see what I can find. I have seen that it is very pagan--something important to the Vikings.

I just looked up "Yuletide" and it is very interesting. There is a lot there to say that it is connected to pagan rituals, and many of the trappings of Christmas such as lighting candles and hanging Mistletoe were to ward off evil spirits. It's worth checking out.

If you're truly interested in "Yule," may I suggest this article, "Concerning Yule," written by Peter Gainsford, a scholar of classics. Notice how, unlike other popular-level articles you find on this topic on the Internet, Gainsford actually surveys the historical sources and engages with modern scholarship.

Based on that, he concludes:

There’s virtually nothing pagan about modern western Christmas customs. But at the same time, nearly all modern Christmas customs are exactly that -- modern . . . The only bits of Christmas that are ancient are the bits that happen in church.

Like I said above, when we look at the actual historical evidence, the claims that Christmas are pagan don't really hold up.

All right. I don't want to take away from your enjoyment. That's not my aim. I'm just wondering, if people are so concerned about anything that happened in Jesus' life, why everyone doesn't DO what he said to do. Who preaches about the Kingdom, the thing that was of number one importance to Jesus? He said, "I must declare the good news of the Kingdom of God, because for this I was sent forth." (Luke 4:43) If people felt that what Jesus said is of great importance, why is this Kingdom not taught in the churches? Folks will admit that Jesus is a King, but what do they know about his Kingdom? Clergy says that the Kingdom is inside of a person, and they don't teach what it truly is. All their celebrations allegedly concerning Jesus life are perceived by many as good party times, like the unchristian people of old. The Kingdom is ignored, even though the "Hallelujah Chorus" and other songs and quoting of Scriptures that are popular around Christmastime mention that Kingdom.

Isn't this a popular Christmas Scripture? "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given"? (Isaiah 9:6, KJV) It goes on to say a part that is ignored, that mentions the Kingdom: "...And the government shall be upon his shoulder...(7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom."

What do you think? Isn't it as important as celebrating his birthday and his baptism?