In the Beginning

[placebofactor]

In the Beginning
I am taking a new approach by treating the following like an unfolding story. It concerns “The fall of Lucifer and the creation of a new world we call Earth.” If you have other ideas, post them, then support them with scripture. Let’s not argue; we can discuss these matters with reason and common sense. I believe it can be very enlightening.

What was it like before time began? Who can explain or describe the great “I Am,” the Father of all, who is all in all and from everlasting to everlasting? Both John and Paul had a glimpse of this invisible world. Paul said he could not find the words to describe it. The invisible kingdom of God is a place without time, sickness, or death. A myriad of spirits serve their Creator. At his right stands the Father’s only Begotten Son “who is in the brightness of his Father’s glory, and the express image of his person, and who upholds all things by the word of his power.”  

Also, an innumerable number serve the Father. They are incorporeal creatures of every form, real beings of a higher power, perfection, and dignity. Creatures that possess great intelligence; are first in rank, in dignity, and fulfill their offices as they serve their Creator and declare His will. There are nine orders and an innumerable number of them. There are Seraphim, Cherubim, thrones and dominions; virtues, powers, principalities, archangels; and the angels or messengers of God. They excel in strength, are immortal, and act as agents through which God accomplishes His purposes. “They neither marry nor are they given in marriage.”

But there was one, a Cherubim who became filled with pride and jealousy, his name, Lucifer the bearer of light. His anger and jealousy were directed at the Son of God, he, who sat at the Father’s right hand. He said in his heart, “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation. I will ascend above the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

And the LORD God knew his thoughts and said, “How art thou fallen for heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!” So, a heavenly council was held when the Father declared, “Lucifer can no longer remain with us, for he has sinned against me.”

“And where shall we send him.”

“I will send my beloved Son to create a new world of substance and matter; we shall call it Earth. And we will fill it with creatures of every shape and size, creatures of the water, air, and land, creatures who can walk, swim, fly, and communicate. But there shall be one creature made in my Son’s image and his likeness; we will call him man. The man will be made of the dust of the ground, and my Son shall breathe the breath of life into him, and he shall become a living soul.

The Father turned to his Son and said, “I will send you; I will give you the invisible things, the building blocks of life, things that can be understood only by the things you speak into being, even my eternal power and godly nature will I give you.”  

He turned to his Holy Spirit and said, “I will give you the power to form my Son’s words into the visible things of the earth,” and so it was. And somewhere in God’s infinite universe, the Lord Jesus Christ spoke his first words, “Let there be” and so the heaven and earth were created by the Word and Wisdom of God.” Also, from his words, were the sun, moon, and stars of heaven made. “And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” And “by his Spirit, he hath garnished the heavens.”

And so, Lucifer was cast down from heaven to an earth covered with water. There, he was to be called by many names, Serpent, Leviathan, the king over the children of pride, the Devil, Satan, the son of perdition. And the host that followed after, those who kept not their first estate but left their habitation, were cast down to earth.

And it was written, “Darkness was upon the face of the deep.” It was a darkness of gross ignorance, a low, base, and vile thing that now inhabited the depths of the oceans, a place known to us as the region of the dead, the darkness of hell as the ancient Rabbis described it. Then the Father “Commanded the light, the Shekinah Glory of his only begotten Son to shine out of darkness.” “The Sun of Righteousness,” he who is in the spiritual, what the natural light is to the natural world.”

[JehovahsWitness]

What is the debate question?


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[placebofactor]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

I'm waiting for you to disagree with something I wrote, then we can debate.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

I'm waiting for you to disagree with something I wrote, then we can debate.

My understansing of the rules of this forum is that the OP should contain a question for debate but I am not a moderator so I will await clarification on that, I was perhaps mistaken.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Revelations won]

Dear Placebofactor,

I would be happy to respond to your OP if you can produce clear scripture to support you stated concepts. Without supporting scripture you are asking for answers to your private interpretations.

[placebofactor]

In the Beginning
I am taking a new approach by treating the following like an unfolding story. It concerns “The fall of Lucifer and the creation of a new world we call Earth.” If you have other ideas, post them, then support them with scripture. Let’s not argue; we can discuss these matters with reason and common sense. I believe it can be very enlightening.

What was it like before time began? Who can explain or describe the great “I Am,” the Father of all, who is all in all and from everlasting to everlasting? Both John and Paul had a glimpse of this invisible world. Paul said he could not find the words to describe it. The invisible kingdom of God is a place without time, sickness, or death. A myriad of spirits serve their Creator. At his right stands the Father’s only Begotten Son “who is in the brightness of his Father’s glory, and the express image of his person, and who upholds all things by the word of his power.”  

Also, an innumerable number serve the Father. They are incorporeal creatures of every form, real beings of a higher power, perfection, and dignity. Creatures that possess great intelligence; are first in rank, in dignity, and fulfill their offices as they serve their Creator and declare His will. There are nine orders and an innumerable number of them. There are Seraphim, Cherubim, thrones and dominions; virtues, powers, principalities, archangels; and the angels or messengers of God. They excel in strength, are immortal, and act as agents through which God accomplishes His purposes. “They neither marry nor are they given in marriage.”

But there was one, a Cherubim who became filled with pride and jealousy, his name, Lucifer the bearer of light. His anger and jealousy were directed at the Son of God, he, who sat at the Father’s right hand. He said in his heart, “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation. I will ascend above the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

And the LORD God knew his thoughts and said, “How art thou fallen for heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!” So, a heavenly council was held when the Father declared, “Lucifer can no longer remain with us, for he has sinned against me.”

“And where shall we send him.”

“I will send my beloved Son to create a new world of substance and matter; we shall call it Earth. And we will fill it with creatures of every shape and size, creatures of the water, air, and land, creatures who can walk, swim, fly, and communicate. But there shall be one creature made in my Son’s image and his likeness; we will call him man. The man will be made of the dust of the ground, and my Son shall breathe the breath of life into him, and he shall become a living soul.

The Father turned to his Son and said, “I will send you; I will give you the invisible things, the building blocks of life, things that can be understood only by the things you speak into being, even my eternal power and godly nature will I give you.”  

He turned to his Holy Spirit and said, “I will give you the power to form my Son’s words into the visible things of the earth,” and so it was. And somewhere in God’s infinite universe, the Lord Jesus Christ spoke his first words, “Let there be” and so the heaven and earth were created by the Word and Wisdom of God.” Also, from his words, were the sun, moon, and stars of heaven made. “And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” And “by his Spirit, he hath garnished the heavens.”

And so, Lucifer was cast down from heaven to an earth covered with water. There, he was to be called by many names, Serpent, Leviathan, the king over the children of pride, the Devil, Satan, the son of perdition. And the host that followed after, those who kept not their first estate but left their habitation, were cast down to earth.

And it was written, “Darkness was upon the face of the deep.” It was a darkness of gross ignorance, a low, base, and vile thing that now inhabited the depths of the oceans, a place known to us as the region of the dead, the darkness of hell as the ancient Rabbis described it. Then the Father “Commanded the light, the Shekinah Glory of his only begotten Son to shine out of darkness.” “The Sun of Righteousness,” he who is in the spiritual, what the natural light is to the natural world.”

Jehovahwitness asked, "What is the question?

Here are my questions.
1. What is the Kingdom of Heaven like?
2. What was the reason for Lucifer’s, fall?
3. Why was Lucifer sent away from his place in heaven?
4. And why do I believe the earth came into being?
5. How do we know Lucifer was sent to Earth before the visible things were created?

Question 1: Paul was given a glimpse of the invisible world, the third heaven. He said in 2 Corinthians 2:5, “I was caught up in paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which are not lawful for a man to utter.” John was also taken there, Revelation 4:1 thru 10.

Question 2: The reason for Lucifer’s fall: His anger and jealousy were directed at the Son of God. He said in his heart, Isaiah 14:13-14, “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation. I will ascend above the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

Three: Why was Lucifer sent away? It was because of his Pride.

Question 4: Because Lucifer was no longer welcome in God’s Kingdom of heaven, a material world was created to hold and to limit him, and where a test was to take place. Jude 6, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he (God) hath reserved in everlasting chains of darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Question 5: How do we know Lucifer was on Earth before the visible creation began, meaning fish, birds, etc.? We have hints in Genesis 1:2 with the words and phrases Moses used. “The earth was without form and void.” See Jeremiah 4:20 through 23, to get a clear picture of its true meaning, then apply it to Genesis. In Genesis, a fallen Israel is represented by a fallen heavenly host in Genesis 1.

Also, the Hebrew word for darkness in Genesis 1:2 does not refer to literal darkness, but to a spiritual darkness, a darkness without God. Also, the LORD used the word evil concerning, “The tree of knowledge of good and evil.” We know the LORD did not create evil, yet he warned Adam about the presence of evil. Genesis 2:17.

[onewithhim]

In the Beginning
I am taking a new approach by treating the following like an unfolding story. It concerns “The fall of Lucifer and the creation of a new world we call Earth.” If you have other ideas, post them, then support them with scripture. Let’s not argue; we can discuss these matters with reason and common sense. I believe it can be very enlightening.

What was it like before time began? Who can explain or describe the great “I Am,” the Father of all, who is all in all and from everlasting to everlasting? Both John and Paul had a glimpse of this invisible world. Paul said he could not find the words to describe it. The invisible kingdom of God is a place without time, sickness, or death. A myriad of spirits serve their Creator. At his right stands the Father’s only Begotten Son “who is in the brightness of his Father’s glory, and the express image of his person, and who upholds all things by the word of his power.”  

Also, an innumerable number serve the Father. They are incorporeal creatures of every form, real beings of a higher power, perfection, and dignity. Creatures that possess great intelligence; are first in rank, in dignity, and fulfill their offices as they serve their Creator and declare His will. There are nine orders and an innumerable number of them. There are Seraphim, Cherubim, thrones and dominions; virtues, powers, principalities, archangels; and the angels or messengers of God. They excel in strength, are immortal, and act as agents through which God accomplishes His purposes. “They neither marry nor are they given in marriage.”

But there was one, a Cherubim who became filled with pride and jealousy, his name, Lucifer the bearer of light. His anger and jealousy were directed at the Son of God, he, who sat at the Father’s right hand. He said in his heart, “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation. I will ascend above the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

And the LORD God knew his thoughts and said, “How art thou fallen for heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!” So, a heavenly council was held when the Father declared, “Lucifer can no longer remain with us, for he has sinned against me.”

“And where shall we send him.”

“I will send my beloved Son to create a new world of substance and matter; we shall call it Earth. And we will fill it with creatures of every shape and size, creatures of the water, air, and land, creatures who can walk, swim, fly, and communicate. But there shall be one creature made in my Son’s image and his likeness; we will call him man. The man will be made of the dust of the ground, and my Son shall breathe the breath of life into him, and he shall become a living soul.

The Father turned to his Son and said, “I will send you; I will give you the invisible things, the building blocks of life, things that can be understood only by the things you speak into being, even my eternal power and godly nature will I give you.”  

He turned to his Holy Spirit and said, “I will give you the power to form my Son’s words into the visible things of the earth,” and so it was. And somewhere in God’s infinite universe, the Lord Jesus Christ spoke his first words, “Let there be” and so the heaven and earth were created by the Word and Wisdom of God.” Also, from his words, were the sun, moon, and stars of heaven made. “And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” And “by his Spirit, he hath garnished the heavens.”

And so, Lucifer was cast down from heaven to an earth covered with water. There, he was to be called by many names, Serpent, Leviathan, the king over the children of pride, the Devil, Satan, the son of perdition. And the host that followed after, those who kept not their first estate but left their habitation, were cast down to earth.

And it was written, “Darkness was upon the face of the deep.” It was a darkness of gross ignorance, a low, base, and vile thing that now inhabited the depths of the oceans, a place known to us as the region of the dead, the darkness of hell as the ancient Rabbis described it. Then the Father “Commanded the light, the Shekinah Glory of his only begotten Son to shine out of darkness.” “The Sun of Righteousness,” he who is in the spiritual, what the natural light is to the natural world.”

Jehovahwitness asked, "What is the question?

Here are my questions.
1. What is the Kingdom of Heaven like?
2. What was the reason for Lucifer’s, fall?
3. Why was Lucifer sent away from his place in heaven?
4. And why do I believe the earth came into being?
5. How do we know Lucifer was sent to Earth before the visible things were created?

Question 1: Paul was given a glimpse of the invisible world, the third heaven. He said in 2 Corinthians 2:5, “I was caught up in paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which are not lawful for a man to utter.” John was also taken there, Revelation 4:1 thru 10.

Question 2: The reason for Lucifer’s fall: His anger and jealousy were directed at the Son of God. He said in his heart, Isaiah 14:13-14, “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation. I will ascend above the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

Three: Why was Lucifer sent away? It was because of his Pride.

Question 4: Because Lucifer was no longer welcome in God’s Kingdom of heaven, a material world was created to hold and to limit him, and where a test was to take place. Jude 6, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he (God) hath reserved in everlasting chains of darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Question 5: How do we know Lucifer was on Earth before the visible creation began, meaning fish, birds, etc.? We have hints in Genesis 1:2 with the words and phrases Moses used. “The earth was without form and void.” See Jeremiah 4:20 through 23, to get a clear picture of its true meaning, then apply it to Genesis. In Genesis, a fallen Israel is represented by a fallen heavenly host in Genesis 1.

Also, the Hebrew word for darkness in Genesis 1:2 does not refer to literal darkness, but to a spiritual darkness, a darkness without God. Also, the LORD used the word evil concerning, “The tree of knowledge of good and evil.” We know the LORD did not create evil, yet he warned Adam about the presence of evil. Genesis 2:17.

Satan wasn't SENT down to the GoE. The GoE was made specifically for humans who would take care of it and spread it earth-wide. Satan had become prideful and went to the earth without God's approval, and tempted Eve (which worked). He and the other angels who were with him were thrown down to the earth much later, right when Christ came into his Kingdom, which was thousands of years later. In the meantime the fallen angels would get involved with things happening on the earth, at one time even materializing and marrying human women. Satan caused Job unbelievable anguish and pain to try and prove he would discard his integrity. No, Satan was never supposed to be on the earth but should have remained in heaven. He never was supposed to turn evil and cause humanity such agony. He wasn't even supposed to take care of the earth. That was Adam's job.

[myth-one.com]

Satan wasn't SENT down to the GoE. The GoE was made specifically for humans who would take care of it and spread it earth-wide. Satan had become prideful and went to the earth without God's approval, and tempted Eve (which worked). He and the other angels who were with him were thrown down to the earth much later, right when Christ came into his Kingdom, which was thousands of years later. In the meantime the fallen angels would get involved with things happening on the earth, at one time even materializing and marrying human women. Satan caused Job unbelievable anguish and pain to try and prove he would discard his integrity. No, Satan was never supposed to be on the earth but should have remained in heaven. He never was supposed to turn evil and cause humanity such agony. He wasn't even supposed to take care of the earth. That was Adam's job.

Where do you get this stuff?

Satan, or the devil, was given rule over the earth after it was created:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

The earth is about 4.55 billion years old. Adam and Eve were created about 6,000 years ago.

If the earth was created specifically for mankind as you claim, then why did God wait over 4 billion years to introduce mankind, and why did He give Satan rule over the earth.

Man was Plan B.

[placebofactor]

Satan wasn't SENT down to the GoE. The GoE was made specifically for humans who would take care of it and spread it earth-wide. Satan had become prideful and went to the earth without God's approval, and tempted Eve (which worked). He and the other angels who were with him were thrown down to the earth much later, right when Christ came into his Kingdom, which was thousands of years later. In the meantime the fallen angels would get involved with things happening on the earth, at one time even materializing and marrying human women. Satan caused Job unbelievable anguish and pain to try and prove he would discard his integrity. No, Satan was never supposed to be on the earth but should have remained in heaven. He never was supposed to turn evil and cause humanity such agony. He wasn't even supposed to take care of the earth. That was Adam's job.

Where do you get this stuff?

Satan, or the devil, was given rule over the earth after it was created:

When Adam was taken to the Garden of Eden, he was given the title deed to the earth. After Adam sinned, Satan was given the title deed to the Earth, Adam and all future generations were now to serve the Devil. Satan is called, John 14:30, "the prince of this world," and Ephesians 2:2, "the prince of the power of the air." After the crucifixion and resurrection, Christ became the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, and the earth is now his Kingdom. He has yet to come down to claim it. Why not? Because the Father said, Hebrews 1:13, "To which of the angels said he (the Father, concerning his Son) at any time, sit on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool?" When he does return to the Earth as King, Lord, and High Priest, that's when Jesus will set up his kingdom in the new heavenly Jerusalem for 1000 years.

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

That happened after his baptism, not after his resurrection.

The earth is about 4.55 billion years old. Adam and Eve were created about 6,000 years ago.

If we knew the number of years Adam lived in the Garden of Eden before he sinned and then cast out, we would then add 6028 years to that number. According to the word of God, that would be the age of the Earth. It appears you have fallen for this scientific bull of billions of years, that to bad!

[JehovahsWitness]

If we knew the number of years Adam lived in the Garden of Eden before he sinned and then cast out, we would then add 6028 years to that number. According to the word of God, that would be the age of the Earth. It appears you have fallen for this scientific bull of billions of years, that to bad!

There is no statement in the bible that God created the earth in the first "day".



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

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