What do JWs know?

[2ndpillar2]

I just had two JWs come to my house. They said that they do not believe in the Trinity, yet they were quoting from a bible whose canon was produced by Athanasius in 367 A.D., the same guy who was the main proponent of the Trinity doctrine at Constantine's Council of Nicaea. They apparently did not know that Athanasius produced the canon they used, and that he proposed doctrine which is opposite of what they believe. Is this a one off, or is lack of historical context part of the JWs normal routine? They gave their quote of the day, Rev 21:4, without context, and didn't know that Rev 22:15 applied to the same Jerusalem, and that those "who practice lying" would not "enter". As soon as I told them, they turned and walked quickly away. The second time in around so many weeks, that JWs came, and quickly walked away when confronted with their inconsistencies.

[onewithhim]

Jesus is not merely a human being. He was created, yes, as a mighty spirit Person in the heavens by his Father, Jehovah. ("He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Colossians 1:15) He came down from heaven 2,000+ years ago (John 3:13). "These are things that the Amen says [Jesus], the faithful and true witness, the beginning of all creation." (Revelation 3:14)

None of that means a dang thing in comparison to the Most High...the Almighty.

Yet, Jesus said that when you see him, you see the Almighty.

If I ask you to show me Jehovah, and you say "if you see me, you see Jehovah", you are placing your presence on the same level as Jehovah.

No I am not. Someone can say, "If you've seen me you've seen my mother," and what does that mean? That I am my mother? No, it means that I have reflected my mother's ways (that she taught me) and her expressions, and I have imitated her so much that I am indeed an image of her. Jesus was speaking the same sentiment when speaking of his Father. He wasn't placing himself on the same level as Jehovah. Like father, like son.

[SiNcE_1985]

No I am not. Someone can say, "If you've seen me you've seen my mother," and what does that mean? That I am my mother? No, it means that I have reflected my mother's ways (that she taught me) and her expressions, and I have imitated her so much that I am indeed an image of her. Jesus was speaking the same sentiment when speaking of his Father. He wasn't placing himself on the same level as Jehovah. Like father, like son.

Sorry owh, that won't work.

Philip had requested specifically FOR the Father.

And Jesus said "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father".

Jesus is saying that what you will get from the Father, you are getting from him..and vice versa.

They are interchangeable..and interchangeable means "exact" just like Heb 1:3 states.
......

Unfortunately, JWs have this fairy tale depiction of The Father & Son, where the Father created the Son and the Son gleefully learns from his Father (how to change a flat tire, throw a football, saw a piece of wood).

However, that depiction isn't Biblical in light of many scriptures which state otherwise.

[John17_3]

I just had two JWs come to my house. They said that they do not believe in the Trinity, yet they were quoting from a bible whose canon was produced by Athanasius in 367 A.D., the same guy who was the main proponent of the Trinity doctrine at Constantine's Council of Nicaea. They apparently did not know that Athanasius produced the canon they used, and that he proposed doctrine which is opposite of what they believe. Is this a one off, or is lack of historical context part of the JWs normal routine? They gave their quote of the day, Rev 21:4, without context, and didn't know that Rev 22:15 applied to the same Jerusalem, and that those "who practice lying" would not "enter". As soon as I told them, they turned and walked quickly away. The second time in around so many weeks, that JWs came, and quickly walked away when confronted with their inconsistencies.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not get into arguments at the doors, or anywhere in public.
That is why they walked away. They are trained to end the conversation on a positive or friendly note... if possible.

When it is clear the person is not interested in listening, but rather, trying to dominate, or push their "point" or be competitive, as in wanting to prove what they know, Jehovah's Witnesses take that as their queue, to move on.

They keep in mind that they are searching for friends of peace. Luke 10:5-7
They are not at persons' doors, trying to prove what they know.
That might have been how many of us were before, but the training has been most effective, in helping Jehovah's people to reach honest hearted persons, since making disciples has become even more focussed than in the past. Matthew 24:28, 29

I could share with you what you can do, if you would like Jehovah's Witnesses to stay, if you like.
In that way, you will get to know all that they know.

[onewithhim]

No I am not. Someone can say, "If you've seen me you've seen my mother," and what does that mean? That I am my mother? No, it means that I have reflected my mother's ways (that she taught me) and her expressions, and I have imitated her so much that I am indeed an image of her. Jesus was speaking the same sentiment when speaking of his Father. He wasn't placing himself on the same level as Jehovah. Like father, like son.

Sorry owh, that won't work.

Philip had requested specifically FOR the Father.

And Jesus said "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father".

Jesus is saying that what you will get from the Father, you are getting from him..and vice versa.

They are interchangeable..and interchangeable means "exact" just like Heb 1:3 states.
......

Unfortunately, JWs have this fairy tale depiction of The Father & Son, where the Father created the Son and the Son gleefully learns from his Father (how to change a flat tire, throw a football, saw a piece of wood).

However, that depiction isn't Biblical in light of many scriptures which state otherwise.

Many scriptures have been shown to you that show Jesus being taught and instructed by the Father. Is John 5:19 a figment of someone's imagination?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.'" (John 5:19, KJV)

"For I have not spoken of myself: but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50, KJV) That is how Jesus is the representation of his Father, the image of the invisible God.

[SiNcE_1985]

Many scriptures have been shown to you that show Jesus being taught and instructed by the Father. Is John 5:19 a figment of someone's imagination?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.'" (John 5:19, KJV)

"For I have not spoken of myself: but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50, KJV) That is how Jesus is the representation of his Father, the image of the invisible God.

Um, I already responded to this in a prior post when I said..

"Jesus lessened himself and placed aside his Heavenly Glory and subjected himself to the authority of the "Father" (Phil 2:5-9).

Jesus willfully took the subordinate role as a Son, to the "Father".

It wasn't a position that he had/held from his moment of creation (as you believe).

This is something he did willfully from a previous gloried position of sovereign power.

So, those scriptures you shared of him saying those kinds of things, that is why."

Let's see if you respond to this now, or will you ignore it again like you did the last time.

Ignoring it won't make it go away.

I understand you have your pre-rehearsed Watchtower talking points, but that won't work here.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

I'm not sure if you're aware of the fact that the Bible doesn't have the word Bible in it.

[onewithhim]

Many scriptures have been shown to you that show Jesus being taught and instructed by the Father. Is John 5:19 a figment of someone's imagination?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.'" (John 5:19, KJV)

"For I have not spoken of myself: but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50, KJV) That is how Jesus is the representation of his Father, the image of the invisible God.

Um, I already responded to this in a prior post when I said..

"Jesus lessened himself and placed aside his Heavenly Glory and subjected himself to the authority of the "Father" (Phil 2:5-9).

Jesus willfully took the subordinate role as a Son, to the "Father".

It wasn't a position that he had/held from his moment of creation (as you believe).

This is something he did willfully from a previous gloried position of sovereign power.

So, those scriptures you shared of him saying those kinds of things, that is why."

Let's see if you respond to this now, or will you ignore it again like you did the last time.

Ignoring it won't make it go away.

I understand you have your pre-rehearsed Watchtower talking points, but that won't work here.

It's very unkind of you to insinuate that I have issued "pre-rehearsed talking points." That is untrue. We are encouraged to think for ourselves and that is what I do. I came to my conclusions on my own, and they just so happen to match the Watchtower's. I have not ignored anything you have posted. I stand by what I've already provided.

[Capbook]

Many scriptures have been shown to you that show Jesus being taught and instructed by the Father. Is John 5:19 a figment of someone's imagination?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.'" (John 5:19, KJV)

"For I have not spoken of myself: but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50, KJV) That is how Jesus is the representation of his Father, the image of the invisible God.

Um, I already responded to this in a prior post when I said..

"Jesus lessened himself and placed aside his Heavenly Glory and subjected himself to the authority of the "Father" (Phil 2:5-9).

Jesus willfully took the subordinate role as a Son, to the "Father".

It wasn't a position that he had/held from his moment of creation (as you believe).

This is something he did willfully from a previous gloried position of sovereign power.

So, those scriptures you shared of him saying those kinds of things, that is why."

Let's see if you respond to this now, or will you ignore it again like you did the last time.

Ignoring it won't make it go away.

I understand you have your pre-rehearsed Watchtower talking points, but that won't work here.

It's very unkind of you to insinuate that I have issued "pre-rehearsed talking points." That is untrue. We are encouraged to think for ourselves and that is what I do. I came to my conclusions on my own, and they just so happen to match the Watchtower's. I have not ignored anything you have posted. I stand by what I've already provided.

Do your own thoughts and beliefs goes beyond the teaching of Watchtower?
Or always just within.

[SiNcE_1985]

It's very unkind of you to insinuate that I have issued "pre-rehearsed talking points." That is untrue.

It would be nice for you to have provided direct responses to what I said.

I put thought, time, and energy into what I said and instead of responding in kind to my points, you repeated what you said prior...giving the same preachy responses.

I acknowledged what you said, and I articulated why the scriptures you provided doesn't work here.

I'd like direct refutation of what I said, but that may be asking for too much.

JW's are known for their scripted, pre-rehearsed evangelizing and it appeared as if that's what I was getting.

We are encouraged to think for ourselves and that is what I do. I came to my conclusions on my own, and they just so happen to match the Watchtower's. I have not ignored anything you have posted. I stand by what I've already provided.

Reading any literature (especially of religious nature) that has not been funneled through the organization first, is discouraged and practically forbidden.

That is why no JW would be caught dead reading external, non-WTS literature.

Nor will they be caught dead in any church that they are invited to (yet, they'll invite you to their kingdom Hall).

No, independent thinking is not encouraged.

[onewithhim]

Many scriptures have been shown to you that show Jesus being taught and instructed by the Father. Is John 5:19 a figment of someone's imagination?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.'" (John 5:19, KJV)

"For I have not spoken of myself: but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50, KJV) That is how Jesus is the representation of his Father, the image of the invisible God.

Um, I already responded to this in a prior post when I said..

"Jesus lessened himself and placed aside his Heavenly Glory and subjected himself to the authority of the "Father" (Phil 2:5-9).

Jesus willfully took the subordinate role as a Son, to the "Father".

It wasn't a position that he had/held from his moment of creation (as you believe).

This is something he did willfully from a previous gloried position of sovereign power.

So, those scriptures you shared of him saying those kinds of things, that is why."

Let's see if you respond to this now, or will you ignore it again like you did the last time.

Ignoring it won't make it go away.

I understand you have your pre-rehearsed Watchtower talking points, but that won't work here.

It's very unkind of you to insinuate that I have issued "pre-rehearsed talking points." That is untrue. We are encouraged to think for ourselves and that is what I do. I came to my conclusions on my own, and they just so happen to match the Watchtower's. I have not ignored anything you have posted. I stand by what I've already provided.

Do your own thoughts and beliefs goes beyond the teaching of Watchtower?
Or always just within.

It has come to be seen that my beliefs harmonize with the Watchtower. I don't disagree with anything they say, other than the new allowance that women can wear pants to meetings and out in the ministry.