What do JWs know?

[2ndpillar2]

I just had two JWs come to my house. They said that they do not believe in the Trinity, yet they were quoting from a bible whose canon was produced by Athanasius in 367 A.D., the same guy who was the main proponent of the Trinity doctrine at Constantine's Council of Nicaea. They apparently did not know that Athanasius produced the canon they used, and that he proposed doctrine which is opposite of what they believe. Is this a one off, or is lack of historical context part of the JWs normal routine? They gave their quote of the day, Rev 21:4, without context, and didn't know that Rev 22:15 applied to the same Jerusalem, and that those "who practice lying" would not "enter". As soon as I told them, they turned and walked quickly away. The second time in around so many weeks, that JWs came, and quickly walked away when confronted with their inconsistencies.

[SiNcE_1985]

That people made wrong conclusion about the words doesn't mean Jesus was meaning something else than what he says.

They didn't make the wrong conclusion, though.

They understood exactly what Jesus meant with his words, which would have been blasphemous and worthy of death, had it NOT been true.

Bible tells God dwells in Jesus. That is why, if Jesus is there, also God is, because He is in Jesus. That doesn't mean Jesus himself is the God.

Ok, and as "Christians", isn't God supposed to dwell in all of us?

Before you think too long about the answer, let me provide it for you.

The answer is yes, according to Romans 8:9.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

So, what is the difference between Jesus being "one" with God (The Father & Son are one) and the rest of us being "one" with God and the God dwelling in us?

Obviously, there would be no difference unless Jesus is a special kind of one, relative to the rest of us.

Scripture is clear that Jesus is definitely a special kind.

Heb 1:3

"He (Jesus) is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word".

That scripture tells us what Jesus meant by "I and the Father are ONE".

[1213]

That people made wrong conclusion about the words doesn't mean Jesus was meaning something else than what he says.

They didn't make the wrong conclusion, though.

They understood exactly what Jesus meant with his words, which would have been blasphemous and worthy of death, had it NOT been true.

Jesus said he is one with God. Why would it mean that Jesus is the God?

Ok, and as "Christians", isn't God supposed to dwell in all of us?

Before you think too long about the answer, let me provide it for you.

The answer is yes, according to Romans 8:9.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

So, what is the difference between Jesus being "one" with God (The Father & Son are one) and the rest of us being "one" with God and the God dwelling in us?

Obviously, there would be no difference unless Jesus is a special kind of one, relative to the rest of us.

Scripture is clear that Jesus is definitely a special kind.

Heb 1:3

"He (Jesus) is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word".

That scripture tells us what Jesus meant by "I and the Father are ONE".

Jesus told also that his disciples should be the same way one with God.

I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11
that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
John 17:21

If Jesus is the God because of being one with God, then also disciples of Jesus are the God.

I think the difference between Jesus and others is something else than being one with God. One difference is for example the way Jesus was born. the biggest difference is probably in how Jesus has been loyal to God like no one else.

[SiNcE_1985]

[Replying to 1213 in post #32]

Excuse me, but I had already addressed those scriptures you provided (and any other scripture like it).

I said that the difference between our being one with God and Jesus being one with God is..

Heb 1:3

3 He (Jesus) is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

That description of Jesus relative to the Father is one of which no other being in heaven or on earth matches the criteria...but Jesus fits the description.

So, obviously, it is clear we are not one with God in the same way Jesus is.

Heb 1:3 is a problem for JW's and their attacks on the Trinity doctrine.

[onewithhim]

That people made wrong conclusion about the words doesn't mean Jesus was meaning something else than what he says.

They didn't make the wrong conclusion, though.

They understood exactly what Jesus meant with his words, which would have been blasphemous and worthy of death, had it NOT been true.

Bible tells God dwells in Jesus. That is why, if Jesus is there, also God is, because He is in Jesus. That doesn't mean Jesus himself is the God.

Ok, and as "Christians", isn't God supposed to dwell in all of us?

Before you think too long about the answer, let me provide it for you.

The answer is yes, according to Romans 8:9.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

So, what is the difference between Jesus being "one" with God (The Father & Son are one) and the rest of us being "one" with God and the God dwelling in us?

Obviously, there would be no difference unless Jesus is a special kind of one, relative to the rest of us.

Scripture is clear that Jesus is definitely a special kind.

Heb 1:3

"He (Jesus) is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word".

That scripture tells us what Jesus meant by "I and the Father are ONE".

That scripture tells us that Jesus is the "exact representation of God's being," not God Himself. An image or representation is not the thing that someone is mirroring or representing.

Jesus and the Father are one just as Jesus and the Father and the disciples are one. That means they are united in thought and action; they are in agreement.

Jesus prayed about his disciples: "...That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one." (John 17: 20-23)

Are the disciples also God?

[Capbook]

Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be party'to some "hidden knowledge" , dwe simmly share our understanding of the bible which is freely available for all. Jesus Commossioned his followers to preach the word and that is what JWs do.


JW

May I know are there some denomination whom claim to have "hidden knowledge"? Bible is available to all specially to "Sola Scriptura" denominations.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to have "hidden knowledge." I don't know of any religions that claim this, though there are probably some that do.

May I know what you mean by "hidden knowledge"?

You are the one that asked ME about "hidden knowledge." Please explain what you meant.

I just see it in one of JW's response, I don't know what it means.
I've just thought you know as I believe you have the same belief.

[SiNcE_1985]

That scripture tells us that Jesus is the "exact representation of God's being," not God Himself.

onewithhim, how are ya?

You are my homegirl, but you are simply wrong here.

The keywords are..

1. Exact.
2. Being.

According to Websters dictionary..

Exact: exhibiting or marked by strict, particular, and complete accordance with fact or a standard.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exact

Now, defining "Being".

Being: the qualities that constitute an existent thing : essence

*There are many definitions of the word, but the above definition fits the context of the verse*

So, putting it all together...

Jesus is the marked by a strict, particular, and complete accordance with the standard of God's qualities, existence, and essence.

Now, if you think Jesus fell/falls short of God (the Father) in any of God's qualities or attributes, then you are contradicting the verse...because Jesus cannot fall short of anything related to the Father, otherwise, he wouldn't be the exact representation of the being (God) of which he falls short.

But scripture says that he is.

Jehovah (as you like to call him) is the most Highest of all Highs, the greatest conceivable being that we can imagine.

Would you not agree?

How can anything be said to be the exact representation of something so great, without this thing being just as great?

If you disagree with that assessment, then you are contradicting the verse...because the verse says exact, and that is exactly (no pun intended) what it means.

An image or representation is not the thing that someone is mirroring or representing.

Then it isn't the exact representation of what it is mirroring or representing, is it?

Jesus and the Father are one just as Jesus and the Father and the disciples are one. That means they are united in thought and action; they are in agreement.

Ok, so let me ask you this..

Name me any disciple or any believer in Christ, that can utter the words "If you've seen me, you've seen Christ"...and those words actually be true.

Please tell me. I will wait.

Jesus prayed about his disciples: "...That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one." (John 17: 20-23)

Are the disciples also God?

I will answer this question with a question, the same question I asked above. You are about to see the difference in being in union with someone, and being the exact representation of someone...someone of whom your presence is just as good as theirs.

That is more than in union. That is being of the same essence...of the same fiber of being.

[onewithhim]

That scripture tells us that Jesus is the "exact representation of God's being," not God Himself.

onewithhim, how are ya?

You are my homegirl, but you are simply wrong here.

The keywords are..

1. Exact.
2. Being.

According to Websters dictionary..

Exact: exhibiting or marked by strict, particular, and complete accordance with fact or a standard.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exact

Now, defining "Being".

Being: the qualities that constitute an existent thing : essence

*There are many definitions of the word, but the above definition fits the context of the verse*

So, putting it all together...

Jesus is the marked by a strict, particular, and complete accordance with the standard of God's qualities, existence, and essence.

Now, if you think Jesus fell/falls short of God (the Father) in any of God's qualities or attributes, then you are contradicting the verse...because Jesus cannot fall short of anything related to the Father, otherwise, he wouldn't be the exact representation of the being (God) of which he falls short.

But scripture says that he is.

Jehovah (as you like to call him) is the most Highest of all Highs, the greatest conceivable being that we can imagine.

Would you not agree?

How can anything be said to be the exact representation of something so great, without this thing being just as great?

If you disagree with that assessment, then you are contradicting the verse...because the verse says exact, and that is exactly (no pun intended) what it means.

An image or representation is not the thing that someone is mirroring or representing.

Then it isn't the exact representation of what it is mirroring or representing, is it?

Jesus and the Father are one just as Jesus and the Father and the disciples are one. That means they are united in thought and action; they are in agreement.

Ok, so let me ask you this..

Name me any disciple or any believer in Christ, that can utter the words "If you've seen me, you've seen Christ"...and those words actually be true.

Please tell me. I will wait.

Jesus prayed about his disciples: "...That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one." (John 17: 20-23)

Are the disciples also God?

I will answer this question with a question, the same question I asked above. You are about to see the difference in being in union with someone, and being the exact representation of someone...someone of whom your presence is just as good as theirs.

That is more than in union. That is being of the same essence...of the same fiber of being.

I will still say that an exact representation is like standing in front of a mirror and you see the exact image of yourself, and the image is not you but it represents you completely.

[SiNcE_1985]

I will still say that an exact representation is like standing in front of a mirror and you see the exact image of yourself, and the image is not you but it represents you completely.

That's the point, you cannot represent God completely and not be God (your modalistic view of the Trinity aside) yourself.

I thought God was supposed to be so high and ahead of everything else that no one can come close?

Yet, a merely created human being (your belief) like Jesus is said to represent the Father completely?

Not to mention, Jesus said that his presence among them was just as good as seeing the Father himself (John 14:9)...which would be blasphemous coming from any created human being.

So, no way out. Jesus is God.

[onewithhim]

I will still say that an exact representation is like standing in front of a mirror and you see the exact image of yourself, and the image is not you but it represents you completely.

That's the point, you cannot represent God completely and not be God (your modalistic view of the Trinity aside) yourself.

I thought God was supposed to be so high and ahead of everything else that no one can come close?

Yet, a merely created human being (your belief) like Jesus is said to represent the Father completely?

Not to mention, Jesus said that his presence among them was just as good as seeing the Father himself (John 14:9)...which would be blasphemous coming from any created human being.

So, no way out. Jesus is God.

Jesus is not merely a human being. He was created, yes, as a mighty spirit Person in the heavens by his Father, Jehovah. ("He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Colossians 1:15) He came down from heaven 2,000+ years ago (John 3:13).

"These are things that the Amen says [Jesus], the faithful and true witness, the beginning of all creation." (Revelation 3:14)

An "image" is not the one who is looking in the mirror. It is God who is metaphorically looking in the mirror. All things about God would not show up in the image in the mirror. Jesus was as close to God as a son to his father. That is why he could say that they were "one." Jesus learned from God, and he spoke just as he was told by the Father. "Jesus went on to say to them: 'Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.'" (John 5:19) That's a pretty good definition of an "image" of the Father.

He also said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. Also, I know that his commandment means everlasting life. Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50) If he was God he wouldn't have to learn anything and he would speak of his own initiative. Jesus is clearly not God Almighty.

[SiNcE_1985]

Jesus is not merely a human being. He was created, yes, as a mighty spirit Person in the heavens by his Father, Jehovah. ("He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Colossians 1:15) He came down from heaven 2,000+ years ago (John 3:13). "These are things that the Amen says [Jesus], the faithful and true witness, the beginning of all creation." (Revelation 3:14)

None of that means a dang thing in comparison to the Most High...the Almighty.

Yet, Jesus said that when you see him, you see the Almighty.

If I ask you to show me Jehovah, and you say "if you see me, you see Jehovah", you are placing your presence on the same level as Jehovah.

That is a no-no and blasphemous...something you just don't say...unless it is true...and if it is true, then you are God.

An "image" is not the one who is looking in the mirror. It is God who is metaphorically looking in the mirror. All things about God would not show up in the image in the mirror. Jesus was as close to God as a son to his father. That is why he could say that they were "one." Jesus learned from God, and he spoke just as he was told by the Father. "Jesus went on to say to them: 'Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.'" (John 5:19) That's a pretty good definition of an "image" of the Father.

Jesus lessened himself and placed aside his Heavenly Glory and subjected himself to the authority of the "Father" (Phil 2:5-9).

Jesus willfully took the subordinate role as a Son, to the "Father".

It wasn't a position that he had/held from his moment of creation (as you believe).

This is something he did willfully from a previous gloried position of sovereign power.

So, those scriptures you shared of him saying those kinds of things, that is why.

That still doesn't explain why he would imply that his presence was just as good as his Father's, which can't be the case if you aren't of the same essence of the Father.

He also said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. Also, I know that his commandment means everlasting life. Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50) If he was God he wouldn't have to learn anything and he would speak of his own initiative. Jesus is clearly not God Almighty.

Oh, he wouldn't have to learn anything, eh?

Luke 2:52..

52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

So, all of that knowledge and wisdom that he learned in the eons of chilling with Jehovah before creation (according to JW theology), just for him to have to come to earth to be taught some more.