Other sheep - Little flock

[MissKate13]

What Scripture says the “other sheep” are the great crowd?

What Scripture says the “little flock” are the 144,000?

I can find no Scripture that says “great crowd of other sheep,” nor can I find a verse which says the “little flock of 144,000.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #1]

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:14-16)

Jesus was relating a parable to the Jews when He made this statement. So the sheep referred to could be the Jews. If that is the case, then the sheep not of this Jewish fold would be the gentiles. Remember that Jesus came first to the Jews, then to the gentiles.

However, the entire flock of earthly sheep for which Jesus gave His life is every human on the Earth, both Jews and gentiles. If this is the meaning of the verse, then where are the sheep which are not of this fold? That is, if Jesus died for all the sheep (humans) in the fold of the Earth, and He has sheep which are not of the fold of the Earth; then where are these other sheep which He must bring together into this fold?

Jesus could be referring to the angels which revolted on the earth and are currently imprisoned in hell. These sheep would certainly not be of this fold. That is, on the earth:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

These angels are no longer in the fold of the earth, so it's possible that Jesus is speaking of them. Otherwise, the sheep not in this fold could be on another planet or planets. That is, the earth may not be the only inhabited planet. If the earth is not the only planet with intelligent life, it is a very special planet, because God sent His only Son to die for the sins of earthlings. Can you imagine God the Father calling Jesus in and asking, "How often is it that your Father asks you to do something? We have another rebellious planet and I would like for you to go there as a mortal, live a sinless life, you know...

[Sound doctrine]

When Jesus brought the Gentiles into the fold, they along with the Jews became ONE FLOCK under one shepherd, which is the Lord’s ONE TRUE CHURCH

That's not true. The sheep and the flock is Israel. The sheep not of this fold are Israelites scattered abroad and living among the Gentiles as strangers (To who both James and 1 Peter were written to). The whole purpose of Israel is to be a light unto the Gentiles. Jesus was preparing them to go out into the world to preach their Gospel of the Kingdom. That's what the 144,000 will be doing and the Great multitude will come to Christ through them (the 144,000). When the 144,000 are taken up to God (Rev 12 sign) at the midway point of Israel's 70th week, as the mark of the beast is implemented, then the remnant of Israel (that believes) will run into the wilderness. It's all Israel's doctrine, not for the Body of Christ Church.

[JehovahsWitness]

ARE THE "OTHER SHEEP" OF JOHN 10:16, THE SCATTERED JEWS OF THE DIASPORA ?

After the conquest of Israel in the 5th century BCE by foreign powers, the Jewish people were relocated to foreign lands. Although, in later centuries many returned to Palestine, many settled permanently in these foreign lands. These Jews living all over the then known world came to be referred to as the diaspora.

There are those that propose that Jesus was referring to the diaspora when he referred to his "other sheep" and others who claimed that he was referring to the so-salled lost tribes of Israel. There are 2 reasons why neither proposition can be true.

1. Being Jewish was not limited by location. Biblically "Jewishness" was considered a religious standing based one the persons parentage. In other words, one was a Jew no matter where one lived by virtue of being born to Jewish parents. So there was no scriptural or spiritual basis for Jesus to distinguish between a Jew living in Africa and a Jew living in Jerusalem.

Could Jesus' reference to "other sheep" be speaking about Jews that had left the law of Moses or sinned against its traditions? No. John the Baptist's ministry was for that purpose. As the Messiah, Jesus was there to do something different.

OUT OF THE OLD INTO THE NEW

2. The second reason the other sheep cannot be the diaspora is found in the text itself. Notice, the shepherd initially found his sheep not "scattered" all over the fields but already in a pen.

JOHN 10 : 2-4

....the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice.+ He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him ...

So Jesus the Great Shepherd finds his sheep already in a pen* protected with a door and a doorkeeper. The latter recognizes Jesus as the rightful Shepherd and opens the way for him to lead them OUT. .

*a sheep pen or sheepfold [fold] in bible times was a walled enclosure, used to keep the sheep together and protected. Not to be confused with a "flock" which is a group of sheep.

What would that "[sheep] pen/fold represent and who was the "doorman"? We know from Jesus words he had been sent to minister only to the Israelites, so it seems logical the PEN /fold represented that which kept them united and protected them spiritually, regardless of their physical location . namely the Mosaic Law covenant (compare Gal 3:24). John the Baptist as the "doorkeeper " rightly identified Jesus as the promised one and endorsed his ministry.

What does all this mean? It means that the "other sheep" could not be various "lost tribes of Israel" because all the tribes of Israel could be found (regardless of their physical location) in the same "pen" ie under the temple based arrangement of worship based on the Mosaic Law.


THIS FOLD

If Jesus leads his "Jewish sheep" out of the "old" Mosaic temple based arrangement: where does he take them ? Evidently he doesn't just wander about in the fields he puts them in another (new) Pen (read Mark 2:22). Notice Jesus' words

JOHN 10:16

"I have other sheep not of this fold, those too I must bring in ...

Unless people are going to suggest Jesus lead his sheep out of the Jewish arrangement then lead them right back into it, this second fold /pen is a new (covenant) arrangement for worship.

But wouldn't that new arrangement be one exclusively for Jews since Jesus admitted his ministry was supposed to be for his Jewish brethren? Absolutely not! Although Jesus laid the foundation by preaching only to his fellow Jews, the "new pen" was built and operational only after his death and resurrection. And at that point (ie when the door opened) Jesus sent his followers to all nations and all people (compare Math 28:19, 20).

This was supported not only from Jesus words to the gentile individuals that put faith in him but was evident, as Peter witnessed when Gentile converts were anointed with holy spirit and adopted as spirit sons starting with Cornelius ( compare Mat 8:22; Acts 10:47). So although the very first individuals to enter the pen (sheep fold) were indeed of Jewish origin, the pen(contrary to the temple based arrangement from which Jesus lead his "Jewish" sheep) was at no time was constructed for Jews alone. All ethnicities had their place in this fold/pen based on his (Jesus) own ransom sacrifice.


NOT OF THIS FOLD


Now let's look, REALLY look at what Jesus said; and what he did not say. Notice Jesus did not say .... "I have other sheep that have not arrived yet", he didn't say "I have other sheep that are not in this fold" he said "I have other sheep that are not OF this fold" . In other words, I have other sheep that don't BELONG in this fold". Since all born again Christians did belong in the NEW fold (regardless of their location or ethnicity) , these "other sheep" must differ in some way.


But didn't Jesus say he would bring them into the ONE FOLD ? No he did not. At no point did he say he would put the other sheep into the fold he said "those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd" Since Jesus has just said the "other sheep" are not OF this fold, if he is bringing them in it must be into something else. The implication being they would all be united in worship of the true God in a global arrangement for worship but no matter how hard you look you cannot see the words "I will bring them into the pen"... he could have said "one pen, one flock" but he didn't he said "One shepherd, one flock".



CONCLUSION: Jesus words exclude the possibility that the other sheep were in fact scattered Jews as the calling to become spirit anointed born again Christians went out to all ethnicities albeit, starting with Jews (whether they were living Palestine or were diaspora). The "other sheep" to later arrive would not belong within this fold/pen although they would enjoy perfect unity with those of the initial calling.






JEHOVAHS WITNESS


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THE LITTLE FLOCK , THE OTHER SHEEP and ... THE KINGDOM OF GOD

[tam]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #53]

Peace to you,

I think it is questionable to claim that 'fold' means 'mosaic covenant.' But I also think your post indirectly acknowledges that this is a belief, rather than something that is directly stated by Christ or the text. So I will leave that alone and just like to address the following:

Now let's look, REALLY look at what Jesus said; and what he did not say. Notice Jesus did not say .... "I have other sheep that have not arrived yet", he didn't say "I have other sheep that are not in this fold" he said "I have other sheep that are not OF this fold" . In other words, I have other sheep that don't BELONG in this fold".

There seems to be a misunderstanding here.

Not OF this fold simply means not ORIGINATING from this fold. It means nothing more than that the other sheep do not originate from that particular fold. It does not mean that the other sheep yet to be called would be barred from entering into the new covenant.

ἐκ ek, ek; a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):—after, among, × are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, × hereby, + very highly, in, …ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, × thenceforth, through, × unto, × vehemently, with(-out).

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

For example, if the fold (or sheep pen) referred to all Jews in the Mosaic covenant, then the other sheep could not be Jews in the Mosaic covenant. But they could still be Samaritans (Israelites descended from the other ten tribes) and/or Gentiles.


The other sheep simply do not come from that particular fold. This verse (and surrounding verses) do not in any way state that the other sheep cannot enter into the new covenant. Christ simply said He had more sheep to call than were from that particular fold/sheep pen. And we know that the people in the new covenant do come from ALL tribes, nations, tongues, people. (Rev 5:9-10)

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy