Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

[Wootah]

A New Heaven and a New Earth
Revelation 21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

More quotes taken from: https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-s ... earth.html

Isaiah 65:17-19 - “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.”

2 Peter 3:13 – “But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.”

Revelation 21:1 – “Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.”

Isaiah 66:22 - “‘As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,’ declares the Lord, ‘so will your name and descendants endure.’”

Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

[onewithhim]

It does say what I want it to. And I have posted passages that show that "heavens" means governments that place themselves above God's own government.

OK... governments above God's own government... got it.

Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he would be like an animal for 7 years, and the king would have to know that "the heavens" are ruling. That is, the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind. So what did "the heavens" mean? The heavenly organization where God sits and the angels as well. His own government. (Daniel 4:25,26)

OK, God's government. That makes sense because heaven here isn't a metaphor for government as such, but as the abode of God. That's like mistakenly claiming that "the White House" can be a metaphor for governments, but it's only used to refer to the US government specifically. Likewise, nobody ever says "the Kremlin" to mean other than the Russian government and nobody ever says "Downing Street" to mean other than the UK government. You've offered no evidence that "the heavens" means anything other than God's government. Your claim is that "heavens" sometimes refers to other governments, but you've given us no evidence of that.

Aside from its reference to the Most High, Jehovah, the term "heavens" can refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted above their subject peoples. The dynasty of Babylonians kings that Nebuchadnezzar represented is described at Isaiah 14:12 as being starlike, a "shining one, son of the dawn." By the conquest of Jerusalem that dynasty lifted its throne "above the stars of God," these "stars" referring to the Davidic line of kings (as the Heir to the throne of David, Christ Jesus, is called "the bright morning star." (Rev.22:16; Numbers 24:17)) By its overthrow of the Davidic throne, the Babylonian dynasty exalted itself heaven high. (Isaiah 14: 13,14)

"As for you [King of Babylon], you have said in your heart, 'To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne....I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the Most High.'" (Isaiah 14:13,14)

None of which supports your contention that "heavens" sometimes means "government," whether "exalted above their subject peoples" or not. None of the monarchs or their governments were called "heavens." That was your claim and you've fallen far short of supporting it.

The point is that you made a claim that sounds to you like it ought to be true, but you didn't bother to check and were wrong.

I'm sorry but YOU haven't checked out my argument. It is very clear that kings placed themselves over God's own kingdom (pictured as a mountain), as their kingdoms are higher than God's. The "heavens" are these kingdoms that place themselves higher than the people they govern, as well as God's own kingdom. Isaiah 14:13,14 show this to be true, that "heavens" are governments.

[Capbook]

"Mclintock and Strong's Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: 'In Isaiah ixv, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.'"
I don't know which verse Mclintock was looking at, but "a new heaven and new earth" is mentioned at Isaiah 65:17. (I can't read Roman Numerals so I just looked through all of Isaiah.)

That should be "lxv" ("LXV") instead of "ixv," which is 65, as you note.

Anyway, the point still stands. No matter which verse Mclintock and Strong were referring to in Isaiah, their comment aligns itself with Isaiah 65:17. "A new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people."

Nothing about the quote validates your claim that "heavens" sometimes refers to governments. McClintock is just saying that "heaven and earth" together include everything, including political structures. I can find nowhere that "heaven" refers to a government, even metaphorically. Can you find a verse where it does? Remember that your reasoning is that a government places itself above the governed like the heavens. You found an entry in Insight that includes all those words, but it doesn't actually say what you want it to.

It does say what I want it to. And I have posted passages that show that "heavens" means governments that place themselves above God's own government.

Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he would be like an animal for 7 years, and the king would have to know that "the heavens" are ruling. That is, the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind. So what did "the heavens" mean? The heavenly organization where God sits and the angels as well. His own government. (Daniel 4:25,26) Aside from its reference to the Most High, Jehovah, the term "heavens" can refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted above their subject peoples. The dynasty of Babylonians kings that Nebuchadnezzar represented is described at Isaiah 14:12 as being starlike, a "shining one, son of the dawn." By the conquest of Jerusalem that dynasty lifted its throne "above the stars of God," these "stars" referring to the Davidic line of kings (as the Heir to the throne of David, Christ Jesus, is called "the bright morning star." (Rev.22:16; Numbers 24:17)) By its overthrow of the Davidic throne, the Babylonian dynasty exalted itself heaven high. (Isaiah 14: 13,14)

"As for you [King of Babylon], you have said in your heart, 'To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne....I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the Most High.'" (Isaiah 14:13,14)

So many lexicon definitions of earth, but I'm afraid none of them as new government or new kingdom or human society.

OT:776 'erets —land, earth
a) earth
1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)
2) earth (as opposed to heaven)
3) earth (inhabitants)
b) land
1) country, territory
2) a district, a region
3) a tribal territory
4) a piece of ground
5) the land of Canaan, Israel
6) the inhabitants of land
7) Sheol, a land without return, (under) world
8) city (-state)
c) the ground, the surface of the earth
1) the ground
2) the soil
d) (in phrases)
1) people of the land
2) the space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)
3) level country (a plain)
4) the land of the living
5) end(s) of the earth
e) (almost wholly late in usage); lands, countries; often in contrast to Canaan

(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright © 1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

Check out #3 and #6 in your list.

I think this space is not enough if we list all land or earth inhabitants.
Wouldn't you agree?

[Difflugia]

I'm sorry but YOU haven't checked out my argument.

I absolutely have. Your inability to properly defend your claim isn't because of something I missed.

It is very clear that kings placed themselves over God's own kingdom (pictured as a mountain), as their kingdoms are higher than God's. The "heavens" are these kingdoms that place themselves higher than the people they govern, as well as God's own kingdom. Isaiah 14:13,14 show this to be true, that "heavens" are governments.

Here's Isaiah 14:13-14:

And you said in your heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

Your claim is that the word "heavens" is sometimes used metaphorically to mean "government" or "governments." Isaiah 14:13-14 doesn't do that. The only word there that might be a metaphor for "government" is "throne," but even that might be meant literally. The discussion involves kings, after all.

When anyone in the Bible speaks of "the heavens" literallly, they're referring to the skies or the abode of God. If metaphorically, they're referring to God or the heavenly host. I assert that "the heavens" is never used as a metaphor for human government. Since your claim is that my assertion is false within the Bible itself, all you have to do is find a single counterexample.

[onewithhim]

I'm sorry but YOU haven't checked out my argument.

I absolutely have. Your inability to properly defend your claim isn't because of something I missed.

It is very clear that kings placed themselves over God's own kingdom (pictured as a mountain), as their kingdoms are higher than God's. The "heavens" are these kingdoms that place themselves higher than the people they govern, as well as God's own kingdom. Isaiah 14:13,14 show this to be true, that "heavens" are governments.

Here's Isaiah 14:13-14:

And you said in your heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

Your claim is that the word "heavens" is sometimes used metaphorically to mean "government" or "governments." Isaiah 14:13-14 doesn't do that. The only word there that might be a metaphor for "government" is "throne," but even that might be meant literally. The discussion involves kings, after all.

When anyone in the Bible speaks of "the heavens" literallly, they're referring to the skies or the abode of God. If metaphorically, they're referring to God or the heavenly host. I assert that "the heavens" is never used as a metaphor for human government. Since your claim is that my assertion is false within the Bible itself, all you have to do is find a single counterexample.

I have found counterexamples, which you prefer to rule out.

[Difflugia]

I have found counterexamples, which you prefer to rule out.

The "counterexamples" that you found barely even qualify as excuses. Nothing you've shown us uses "heaven" or "heavens" to mean a human government, which is what your claim was.

Stubbornness ≠ evidence.

[Bible_Student]

The promise of new heavens and a new earth was given to the Jews in reference to their return to the land they would vacate in the future when they would be expelled by Jehovah from there. This happened about 2 centuries after Isaiah's prophecy, and it referred to new settlers with a new government over them, when they came back from the exile.

 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.
18 So exult and be joyful forever in what I am creating.
For look! I am creating Jerusalem a cause for joy
And her people a cause for exultation.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem and exult in my people;
No more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or a cry of distress.”

[onewithhim]

"Mclintock and Strong's Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: 'In Isaiah ixv, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.'"
I don't know which verse Mclintock was looking at, but "a new heaven and new earth" is mentioned at Isaiah 65:17. (I can't read Roman Numerals so I just looked through all of Isaiah.)

That should be "lxv" ("LXV") instead of "ixv," which is 65, as you note.

Anyway, the point still stands. No matter which verse Mclintock and Strong were referring to in Isaiah, their comment aligns itself with Isaiah 65:17. "A new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people."

Nothing about the quote validates your claim that "heavens" sometimes refers to governments. McClintock is just saying that "heaven and earth" together include everything, including political structures. I can find nowhere that "heaven" refers to a government, even metaphorically. Can you find a verse where it does? Remember that your reasoning is that a government places itself above the governed like the heavens. You found an entry in Insight that includes all those words, but it doesn't actually say what you want it to.

It does say what I want it to. And I have posted passages that show that "heavens" means governments that place themselves above God's own government.

Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he would be like an animal for 7 years, and the king would have to know that "the heavens" are ruling. That is, the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind. So what did "the heavens" mean? The heavenly organization where God sits and the angels as well. His own government. (Daniel 4:25,26) Aside from its reference to the Most High, Jehovah, the term "heavens" can refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted above their subject peoples. The dynasty of Babylonians kings that Nebuchadnezzar represented is described at Isaiah 14:12 as being starlike, a "shining one, son of the dawn." By the conquest of Jerusalem that dynasty lifted its throne "above the stars of God," these "stars" referring to the Davidic line of kings (as the Heir to the throne of David, Christ Jesus, is called "the bright morning star." (Rev.22:16; Numbers 24:17)) By its overthrow of the Davidic throne, the Babylonian dynasty exalted itself heaven high. (Isaiah 14: 13,14)

"As for you [King of Babylon], you have said in your heart, 'To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne....I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the Most High.'" (Isaiah 14:13,14)

So many lexicon definitions of earth, but I'm afraid none of them as new government or new kingdom or human society.

OT:776 'erets —land, earth
a) earth
1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)
2) earth (as opposed to heaven)
3) earth (inhabitants)
b) land
1) country, territory
2) a district, a region
3) a tribal territory
4) a piece of ground
5) the land of Canaan, Israel
6) the inhabitants of land
7) Sheol, a land without return, (under) world
8) city (-state)
c) the ground, the surface of the earth
1) the ground
2) the soil
d) (in phrases)
1) people of the land
2) the space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)
3) level country (a plain)
4) the land of the living
5) end(s) of the earth
e) (almost wholly late in usage); lands, countries; often in contrast to Canaan

(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright © 1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

Check out #3 and #6 in your list.

I think this space is not enough if we list all land or earth inhabitants.
Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, but why do you think that would be necessary?

[Capbook]

"Mclintock and Strong's Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: 'In Isaiah ixv, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.'"
I don't know which verse Mclintock was looking at, but "a new heaven and new earth" is mentioned at Isaiah 65:17. (I can't read Roman Numerals so I just looked through all of Isaiah.)

That should be "lxv" ("LXV") instead of "ixv," which is 65, as you note.

Anyway, the point still stands. No matter which verse Mclintock and Strong were referring to in Isaiah, their comment aligns itself with Isaiah 65:17. "A new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people."

Nothing about the quote validates your claim that "heavens" sometimes refers to governments. McClintock is just saying that "heaven and earth" together include everything, including political structures. I can find nowhere that "heaven" refers to a government, even metaphorically. Can you find a verse where it does? Remember that your reasoning is that a government places itself above the governed like the heavens. You found an entry in Insight that includes all those words, but it doesn't actually say what you want it to.

It does say what I want it to. And I have posted passages that show that "heavens" means governments that place themselves above God's own government.

Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he would be like an animal for 7 years, and the king would have to know that "the heavens" are ruling. That is, the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind. So what did "the heavens" mean? The heavenly organization where God sits and the angels as well. His own government. (Daniel 4:25,26) Aside from its reference to the Most High, Jehovah, the term "heavens" can refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted above their subject peoples. The dynasty of Babylonians kings that Nebuchadnezzar represented is described at Isaiah 14:12 as being starlike, a "shining one, son of the dawn." By the conquest of Jerusalem that dynasty lifted its throne "above the stars of God," these "stars" referring to the Davidic line of kings (as the Heir to the throne of David, Christ Jesus, is called "the bright morning star." (Rev.22:16; Numbers 24:17)) By its overthrow of the Davidic throne, the Babylonian dynasty exalted itself heaven high. (Isaiah 14: 13,14)

"As for you [King of Babylon], you have said in your heart, 'To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne....I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the Most High.'" (Isaiah 14:13,14)

So many lexicon definitions of earth, but I'm afraid none of them as new government or new kingdom or human society.

OT:776 'erets —land, earth
a) earth
1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)
2) earth (as opposed to heaven)
3) earth (inhabitants)
b) land
1) country, territory
2) a district, a region
3) a tribal territory
4) a piece of ground
5) the land of Canaan, Israel
6) the inhabitants of land
7) Sheol, a land without return, (under) world
8) city (-state)
c) the ground, the surface of the earth
1) the ground
2) the soil
d) (in phrases)
1) people of the land
2) the space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)
3) level country (a plain)
4) the land of the living
5) end(s) of the earth
e) (almost wholly late in usage); lands, countries; often in contrast to Canaan

(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright © 1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

Check out #3 and #6 in your list.

I think this space is not enough if we list all land or earth inhabitants.
Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, but why do you think that would be necessary?

Did you not say that "A new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people."?
Because I believe the Bible did not signify like that. (Mat 5:5)
New government, new kingdom, new people is never mentioned in lexicon of earth, see below;

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

γῆ gē
Thayer Definition:
1) arable land
2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4) the earth as a whole
4a) the earth as opposed to the heavens
4b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

[onewithhim]

"Mclintock and Strong's Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: 'In Isaiah ixv, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.'"
I don't know which verse Mclintock was looking at, but "a new heaven and new earth" is mentioned at Isaiah 65:17. (I can't read Roman Numerals so I just looked through all of Isaiah.)

That should be "lxv" ("LXV") instead of "ixv," which is 65, as you note.

Anyway, the point still stands. No matter which verse Mclintock and Strong were referring to in Isaiah, their comment aligns itself with Isaiah 65:17. "A new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people."

Nothing about the quote validates your claim that "heavens" sometimes refers to governments. McClintock is just saying that "heaven and earth" together include everything, including political structures. I can find nowhere that "heaven" refers to a government, even metaphorically. Can you find a verse where it does? Remember that your reasoning is that a government places itself above the governed like the heavens. You found an entry in Insight that includes all those words, but it doesn't actually say what you want it to.

It does say what I want it to. And I have posted passages that show that "heavens" means governments that place themselves above God's own government.

Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he would be like an animal for 7 years, and the king would have to know that "the heavens" are ruling. That is, the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind. So what did "the heavens" mean? The heavenly organization where God sits and the angels as well. His own government. (Daniel 4:25,26) Aside from its reference to the Most High, Jehovah, the term "heavens" can refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted above their subject peoples. The dynasty of Babylonians kings that Nebuchadnezzar represented is described at Isaiah 14:12 as being starlike, a "shining one, son of the dawn." By the conquest of Jerusalem that dynasty lifted its throne "above the stars of God," these "stars" referring to the Davidic line of kings (as the Heir to the throne of David, Christ Jesus, is called "the bright morning star." (Rev.22:16; Numbers 24:17)) By its overthrow of the Davidic throne, the Babylonian dynasty exalted itself heaven high. (Isaiah 14: 13,14)

"As for you [King of Babylon], you have said in your heart, 'To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne....I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the Most High.'" (Isaiah 14:13,14)

So many lexicon definitions of earth, but I'm afraid none of them as new government or new kingdom or human society.

OT:776 'erets —land, earth
a) earth
1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)
2) earth (as opposed to heaven)
3) earth (inhabitants)
b) land
1) country, territory
2) a district, a region
3) a tribal territory
4) a piece of ground
5) the land of Canaan, Israel
6) the inhabitants of land
7) Sheol, a land without return, (under) world
8) city (-state)
c) the ground, the surface of the earth
1) the ground
2) the soil
d) (in phrases)
1) people of the land
2) the space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)
3) level country (a plain)
4) the land of the living
5) end(s) of the earth
e) (almost wholly late in usage); lands, countries; often in contrast to Canaan

(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright © 1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

Check out #3 and #6 in your list.

I think this space is not enough if we list all land or earth inhabitants.
Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, but why do you think that would be necessary?

Did you not say that "A new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people."?
Because I believe the Bible did not signify like that. (Mat 5:5)
New government, new kingdom, new people is never mentioned in lexicon of earth, see below;

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

γῆ gē
Thayer Definition:
1) arable land
2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4) the earth as a whole
4a) the earth as opposed to the heavens
4b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

How about 4b which speaks of the inhabitants of the earth? So "people" is mentioned in the Scripture at Genesis 11:1, because the earth itself could not speak. It had to be the people on it.

[Revelations won]

Dear Wootah,

Just an interesting thought to reflect upon for you and all respondents:

Since there will be "a new heaven and a new earth" it should be abundantly clear to you and all respondents that God never intended us to remain forever in the "garden of Eden" ....