GEHENNA, a place of fiery torture?

[onewithhim]

Jesus warned his disciples against suffering the judgment of Gehenna. Was he referring to a burning hell of everlasting torture? (Matthew 5:22)

The Greek word Ge'en na corresponds to the Hebrew geh veneh-Hin nom,---Valley of the sons of Hinnom. It became a garbage dump for Jerusalem, serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish, and anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes.

Many Bible translators haven rendered Ge' en na as "hell." (Matthew 5:22, KJV) Why is this? (Since Gehenna and hell are two different things.) Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, though, did not associate Gehenna with torture. He knew that the thought of burning people alive is repugnant to Jehovah. He referred to the use made of Gehenna in the days of the prophet Jeremiah. God said: "They have built the high places of Topheth which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." Burning people was not something that God can countenance, and He can't to this day. A good point is that the idea of torture for the dead conflicts with God's loving personality as well as with the Bible's clear teaching that "the dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)

Jesus used the term "Gehenna" to symbolize the utter destruction that would come from God's judgment on the wicked. So...."Gehenna" means, similarly, the lake of fire in Revelation. Both symbolize eternal destruction from which there is no resurrection. (Luke 12:4,5; Revelation 20:14,15.

Doesn't this sound more merciful than people being tortured in a never-ending fire? The fire symbolizes complete annihilation, just like what the fires in Gehenna did to trash and bodies of criminals.

[onewithhim]

How can you literally PUT death and hell into anything?

I suspect your difficulty is the same as with Jesus being literally both God and the Son of God. Mystical and metaphorical aren't the same thing, particularly in theology. Arguing that some theology is wrong because you have difficulty imagining it in a physical sense is a pretty poor argument. Paul speaks of multiple kinds of life, death, spirit, bodies, and heavens in ways that don't seem metaphorical, but don't make physical sense. You're now just arguing that death and hell can't be put somewhere else because you can't imagine it.

If heaven is of some substance of which a body can be made (1 Cor. 15:48), then why do you have trouble believing that hell is of some substance as well? You have repeatedly asserted that hades just refers to the grave, but there's no biblical reason to insist on that. Luke 10:15 implies that heaven and hell are complementary places, so unless you think God lacks dominion over heaven to move it elsewhere, whence your conviction that God lacks such dominion over hell?

The Bible's weird and theology is made up to suit the reader. As such, your trouble with someone else's theology might just be insufficient imagination.

How can you handle death and hell so as to literally throw them?

[Difflugia]

Luke 10:15 implies that heaven and hell are complementary places, so unless you think God lacks dominion over heaven to move it elsewhere, whence your conviction that God lacks such dominion over hell?

How can you handle death and hell so as to literally throw them?

That's what I addressed. Your incredulity doesn't change my argument. If both hell and the lake of fire are finite spaces, then one could be thrown into the other. If death is something that can be "conquered," like a contagion, then perhaps it's something that can also be cast into an eternal lake of fire. Or perhaps your argument is simply an invalid straw man, since it's based on your earlier premise that if the lake of fire is literal, then no reference to it can be used in a metaphorical way. You want an all or nothing approach because, despite being a terrible argument, it's the best one you have.

Your entire argument has been that any theology other than yours sounds silly to you and should therefore sound silly to the rest of us. I'll say this as ecumenically as possible: whatever Witness theology may be, it's not less silly than anybody else's.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #92]

Your take on the lake of fire is almost amusing. You say that "death" and "hell" can literally be thrown somewhere. That is ridiculous.

[Difflugia]

Your take on the lake of fire is almost amusing. You say that "death" and "hell" can literally be thrown somewhere.

No, you keep saying that I'm saying that. I'm saying that a lake of fire and eternal torture in it can be literal without death and hell being literally thrown into it.

That is ridiculous.

All theology is ridiculous. It's a "discipline without a subject," as it were.

If all you have are incredulity, insults, and straw men, then you haven't built much of an argument.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Before I respond, I would just like to state that I agree: there is no place of eternal torment/torture by fire (wherein a living being is burned in fire for all eternity). Not that my agreement makes something true. But my Lord has not taught me there is eternal torment in fire. Instead, He has taught me what the Father said our choice is: Life or Death. Not Life or Eternal Conscious Torment.

The enemy is Death.

Yes, but I believe all fire that punished the ungodly is literal fire.

You may believe that but the bible makes no such statement. Fire in scripture can be either literal or figurative and there is no statement in scripture that ffire reserved for the wicked must be literal.


JW

I agree with Capbook.

Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

With Revelation 22:19 in mind, what word or words would you risk replacing the biblical "lake of fire" phrase with in the Holy Bible to make it a literally true statement?

There are no words taken away from the Scriptures. There are just explanations to glean the meaning of the "lake of fire." Just as Jesus explained his stories and illustrations to his disciples, as at Matthew 13:3-51) Jesus directs us even now to understand the illustrations in the Scriptures, and the Lake of fire is symbolic for complete annihilation.

Definition of lake of fire: A lake of fire.

There is no symbolic lake of fire -- that is your creation.

Those cast into the real lake of fire quickly experience their second and everlasting death and yes it results in their annihilation. That will be the end of them forever.

Definition of annihilation: complete destruction or obliteration.

Putting "complete" in front of annihilation is redundant.

The above is from the scriptures and requires no additional "explanation."

Good, you have defined the Lake of fire as symbolic for destruction.

Well something has to cause that destruction, so the fire would not have to be symbolic (not that it would necessarily be a simple fire like from a match. Rather a fire greater and more powerful, like the sun - though I would think an even greater energy than that.)

That's what I have been saying. It couldn't be literal because you can't throw death and Hades into anything.

Hades is a place. It could be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed.

The throwing of them into the lake of fire is not literal. It just means that they exist no longer.

But something causes them to exist no longer. I agree that the lake of fire means the second death, and that means total destruction; annihilation. But the fire itself does not have to be symbolic.


Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[John17_3]

Jesus warned his disciples against suffering the judgment of Gehenna. Was he referring to a burning hell of everlasting torture? (Matthew 5:22)

The Greek word Ge'en na corresponds to the Hebrew geh veneh-Hin nom,---Valley of the sons of Hinnom. It became a garbage dump for Jerusalem, serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish, and anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes.

Many Bible translators haven rendered Ge' en na as "hell." (Matthew 5:22, KJV) Why is this? (Since Gehenna and hell are two different things.) Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, though, did not associate Gehenna with torture. He knew that the thought of burning people alive is repugnant to Jehovah. He referred to the use made of Gehenna in the days of the prophet Jeremiah. God said: "They have built the high places of Topheth which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." Burning people was not something that God can countenance, and He can't to this day. A good point is that the idea of torture for the dead conflicts with God's loving personality as well as with the Bible's clear teaching that "the dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)

Jesus used the term "Gehenna" to symbolize the utter destruction that would come from God's judgment on the wicked. So...."Gehenna" means, similarly, the lake of fire in Revelation. Both symbolize eternal destruction from which there is no resurrection. (Luke 12:4,5; Revelation 20:14,15.

Doesn't this sound more merciful than people being tortured in a never-ending fire? The fire symbolizes complete annihilation, just like what the fires in Gehenna did to trash and bodies of criminals.

Using a simple approach, and Bible principle - 2 Timothy 3:16 - I believe this question can be answered simply by referring to what Gehenna actually is described as in the Bible.
The lake of fire, in the book of Revelation, refers to Gehenna - the final place for all that God is opposed to, or is opposed to God.
Everything that is an enemy of God goes there, and the lake of fire is not gotten rid of.

Revelation 20:14 says the lake of fire is "the second death", where all whose name is not found written in the book of life are cast, along with Satan the Devil, the wild beast, the false prophet, death, and Hades.
The death of anything means its "life" is gone. Whether that thing be my computer, the refrigerator, television, phone, dog, cat, human...

So, the second death - Gehenna - is final destruction - the end of the things cast into it. There is no coming back from the second death. Gehenna is final, as its meaning reveals.

It seem then, that any argument against this will go against the Bible, Jesus, and God, because it is God who sent Jesus with this message, and Jesus sent an angel to signify it. Revelation 1:1

The angel of Jesus did not lie when he explained the symbolism of the lake of fire.
Therefore, if anyone argues that the lake of fire is literal, that person is really arguing against Jesus' angel -
contradicting him, and that would amount to calling Jesus' angel a liar, and by extension, saying both Jesus and God are liars.
I would not want to do that.

So, rather than this being a complicated subject, I see this as simple, and no argument really.
If there is any contending, it is not against a human, because it is either we agree with Jesus, or we don't.
Either Gehenna/lake of fire is the second death, or it isn't.

[Capbook]

Jesus warned his disciples against suffering the judgment of Gehenna. Was he referring to a burning hell of everlasting torture? (Matthew 5:22)

The Greek word Ge'en na corresponds to the Hebrew geh veneh-Hin nom,---Valley of the sons of Hinnom. It became a garbage dump for Jerusalem, serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish, and anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes.

Many Bible translators haven rendered Ge' en na as "hell." (Matthew 5:22, KJV) Why is this? (Since Gehenna and hell are two different things.) Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, though, did not associate Gehenna with torture. He knew that the thought of burning people alive is repugnant to Jehovah. He referred to the use made of Gehenna in the days of the prophet Jeremiah. God said: "They have built the high places of Topheth which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." Burning people was not something that God can countenance, and He can't to this day. A good point is that the idea of torture for the dead conflicts with God's loving personality as well as with the Bible's clear teaching that "the dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)

Jesus used the term "Gehenna" to symbolize the utter destruction that would come from God's judgment on the wicked. So...."Gehenna" means, similarly, the lake of fire in Revelation. Both symbolize eternal destruction from which there is no resurrection. (Luke 12:4,5; Revelation 20:14,15.

Doesn't this sound more merciful than people being tortured in a never-ending fire? The fire symbolizes complete annihilation, just like what the fires in Gehenna did to trash and bodies of criminals.

Using a simple approach, and Bible principle - 2 Timothy 3:16 - I believe this question can be answered simply by referring to what Gehenna actually is described as in the Bible.
The lake of fire, in the book of Revelation, refers to Gehenna - the final place for all that God is opposed to, or is opposed to God.
Everything that is an enemy of God goes there, and the lake of fire is not gotten rid of.

Revelation 20:14 says the lake of fire is "the second death", where all whose name is not found written in the book of life are cast, along with Satan the Devil, the wild beast, the false prophet, death, and Hades.
The death of anything means its "life" is gone. Whether that thing be my computer, the refrigerator, television, phone, dog, cat, human...

So, the second death - Gehenna - is final destruction - the end of the things cast into it. There is no coming back from the second death. Gehenna is final, as its meaning reveals.

It seem then, that any argument against this will go against the Bible, Jesus, and God, because it is God who sent Jesus with this message, and Jesus sent an angel to signify it. Revelation 1:1

The angel of Jesus did not lie when he explained the symbolism of the lake of fire.
Therefore, if anyone argues that the lake of fire is literal, that person is really arguing against Jesus' angel -
contradicting him, and that would amount to calling Jesus' angel a liar, and by extension, saying both Jesus and God are liars.
I would not want to do that.

So, rather than this being a complicated subject, I see this as simple, and no argument really.
If there is any contending, it is not against a human, because it is either we agree with Jesus, or we don't.
Either Gehenna/lake of fire is the second death, or it isn't.

Yes. Gehenna/lake of fire is the second death.
But what causes the death? Could it be a literal lake of fire?
When literal fire burnt something, could that something turn to ashes?
And in (Ezek 28:18) that the devil's course parallels that of the ancient king of Tyre, will be turn to ashes. (link below)
I believe the lake of fire is literal fire.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/200 ... 2-19&p=par
The original name of the angel who became Satan is unknown. The terms “Satan” and “Devil” mean “Resister” and “Slanderer.” In some respects, Satan’s course parallels that of the ancient king of Tyre. (Ezekiel 28:12-19) Both started out faultless in their ways but became victims of their own haughtiness

[onewithhim]

Jesus warned his disciples against suffering the judgment of Gehenna. Was he referring to a burning hell of everlasting torture? (Matthew 5:22)

The Greek word Ge'en na corresponds to the Hebrew geh veneh-Hin nom,---Valley of the sons of Hinnom. It became a garbage dump for Jerusalem, serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish, and anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes.

Many Bible translators haven rendered Ge' en na as "hell." (Matthew 5:22, KJV) Why is this? (Since Gehenna and hell are two different things.) Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, though, did not associate Gehenna with torture. He knew that the thought of burning people alive is repugnant to Jehovah. He referred to the use made of Gehenna in the days of the prophet Jeremiah. God said: "They have built the high places of Topheth which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." Burning people was not something that God can countenance, and He can't to this day. A good point is that the idea of torture for the dead conflicts with God's loving personality as well as with the Bible's clear teaching that "the dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)

Jesus used the term "Gehenna" to symbolize the utter destruction that would come from God's judgment on the wicked. So...."Gehenna" means, similarly, the lake of fire in Revelation. Both symbolize eternal destruction from which there is no resurrection. (Luke 12:4,5; Revelation 20:14,15.

Doesn't this sound more merciful than people being tortured in a never-ending fire? The fire symbolizes complete annihilation, just like what the fires in Gehenna did to trash and bodies of criminals.

Using a simple approach, and Bible principle - 2 Timothy 3:16 - I believe this question can be answered simply by referring to what Gehenna actually is described as in the Bible.
The lake of fire, in the book of Revelation, refers to Gehenna - the final place for all that God is opposed to, or is opposed to God.
Everything that is an enemy of God goes there, and the lake of fire is not gotten rid of.

Revelation 20:14 says the lake of fire is "the second death", where all whose name is not found written in the book of life are cast, along with Satan the Devil, the wild beast, the false prophet, death, and Hades.
The death of anything means its "life" is gone. Whether that thing be my computer, the refrigerator, television, phone, dog, cat, human...

So, the second death - Gehenna - is final destruction - the end of the things cast into it. There is no coming back from the second death. Gehenna is final, as its meaning reveals.

It seem then, that any argument against this will go against the Bible, Jesus, and God, because it is God who sent Jesus with this message, and Jesus sent an angel to signify it. Revelation 1:1

The angel of Jesus did not lie when he explained the symbolism of the lake of fire.
Therefore, if anyone argues that the lake of fire is literal, that person is really arguing against Jesus' angel -
contradicting him, and that would amount to calling Jesus' angel a liar, and by extension, saying both Jesus and God are liars.
I would not want to do that.

So, rather than this being a complicated subject, I see this as simple, and no argument really.
If there is any contending, it is not against a human, because it is either we agree with Jesus, or we don't.
Either Gehenna/lake of fire is the second death, or it isn't.

Yes. Gehenna/lake of fire is the second death.
But what causes the death? Could it be a literal lake of fire?
When literal fire burnt something, could that something turn to ashes?
And in (Ezek 28:18) that the devil's course parallels that of the ancient king of Tyre, will be turn to ashes. (link below)
I believe the lake of fire is literal fire.

You haven't explained how Hades and death can be thrown into a literal lake of fire.

(And God causes the death of Satan and the ending of the grave (Hades) and death. No literal lake of fire.)

[John17_3]

[Replying to Capbook in post #97]

Yes. Gehenna/lake of fire is the second death.
But what causes the death? Could it be a literal lake of fire?
When literal fire burnt something, could that something turn to ashes?
And in (Ezek 28:18) that the devil's course parallels that of the ancient king of Tyre, will be turn to ashes. (link below)
I believe the lake of fire is literal fire.

Only you can be honest with yourself.
When you read Revelation and see that the angel is signifying what he says (Revelation 1:1), will you take the symbol, and say it is real, even after the angel explains what the symbol represents?

You can always do a simple integrity test.
At Revelation 1:20, the angel says, "The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."
Do you believe the seven stars are literally seven stars, and the seven lampstands are literally seven lampstands?

Revelation 5:6 says, "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth."
Do you believe this is a literal lamb with seven horns and seven eyes?

Referring to the beast with seven heads, and ten horns, Revelation 17:9, 10 says, "“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.
The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast."
Do you believe this is a literal beast with seven heads, and ten horns?

One more.
Revelation 17:15-18 - Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. ...
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
Do you believe the woman is literal and is actually literally sitting on waters?

After you answer those questions, you should have available information about yourself that you need, if by chance you do not already have it.

[Capbook]

Jesus warned his disciples against suffering the judgment of Gehenna. Was he referring to a burning hell of everlasting torture? (Matthew 5:22)

The Greek word Ge'en na corresponds to the Hebrew geh veneh-Hin nom,---Valley of the sons of Hinnom. It became a garbage dump for Jerusalem, serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish, and anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes.

Many Bible translators haven rendered Ge' en na as "hell." (Matthew 5:22, KJV) Why is this? (Since Gehenna and hell are two different things.) Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, though, did not associate Gehenna with torture. He knew that the thought of burning people alive is repugnant to Jehovah. He referred to the use made of Gehenna in the days of the prophet Jeremiah. God said: "They have built the high places of Topheth which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." Burning people was not something that God can countenance, and He can't to this day. A good point is that the idea of torture for the dead conflicts with God's loving personality as well as with the Bible's clear teaching that "the dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)

Jesus used the term "Gehenna" to symbolize the utter destruction that would come from God's judgment on the wicked. So...."Gehenna" means, similarly, the lake of fire in Revelation. Both symbolize eternal destruction from which there is no resurrection. (Luke 12:4,5; Revelation 20:14,15.

Doesn't this sound more merciful than people being tortured in a never-ending fire? The fire symbolizes complete annihilation, just like what the fires in Gehenna did to trash and bodies of criminals.

Using a simple approach, and Bible principle - 2 Timothy 3:16 - I believe this question can be answered simply by referring to what Gehenna actually is described as in the Bible.
The lake of fire, in the book of Revelation, refers to Gehenna - the final place for all that God is opposed to, or is opposed to God.
Everything that is an enemy of God goes there, and the lake of fire is not gotten rid of.

Revelation 20:14 says the lake of fire is "the second death", where all whose name is not found written in the book of life are cast, along with Satan the Devil, the wild beast, the false prophet, death, and Hades.
The death of anything means its "life" is gone. Whether that thing be my computer, the refrigerator, television, phone, dog, cat, human...

So, the second death - Gehenna - is final destruction - the end of the things cast into it. There is no coming back from the second death. Gehenna is final, as its meaning reveals.

It seem then, that any argument against this will go against the Bible, Jesus, and God, because it is God who sent Jesus with this message, and Jesus sent an angel to signify it. Revelation 1:1

The angel of Jesus did not lie when he explained the symbolism of the lake of fire.
Therefore, if anyone argues that the lake of fire is literal, that person is really arguing against Jesus' angel -
contradicting him, and that would amount to calling Jesus' angel a liar, and by extension, saying both Jesus and God are liars.
I would not want to do that.

So, rather than this being a complicated subject, I see this as simple, and no argument really.
If there is any contending, it is not against a human, because it is either we agree with Jesus, or we don't.
Either Gehenna/lake of fire is the second death, or it isn't.

Yes. Gehenna/lake of fire is the second death.
But what causes the death? Could it be a literal lake of fire?
When literal fire burnt something, could that something turn to ashes?
And in (Ezek 28:18) that the devil's course parallels that of the ancient king of Tyre, will be turn to ashes. (link below)
I believe the lake of fire is literal fire.

You haven't explained how Hades and death can be thrown into a literal lake of fire.

(And God causes the death of Satan and the ending of the grave (Hades) and death. No literal lake of fire.)

We are discussing about lake of fire, lexicon define lake as lake and fire defined literal fire that is for burning.
Can fire burn something that makes that something turn to ashes? Yes or no?

Rev 19:20
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

NT:3041 lake (limne) probably from NT:3040 (through the idea of nearness of shore); a pond (large or small):
KJV - lake.
( New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:4442 The Greek and Hellenistic World.
1. Literal. pur is "fire" in its various forms and uses, e.g., for burning, lighting, and warming. Fire is a beneficent and civilizing power but also a destructive and terrifying force. In war it destroys ships, cities, etc., but industrially it serves to purify metals etc.
(from Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, abridged edition, Copyright © 1985 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)