What the ORIGINAL SIN really is. And why Christians are guilty of it

[Avoice]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

[LittleNipper]

When Adam and Eve listened to Satan rather than GOD, they opened the door for Satan to manipulate the material world in every effort to usurp GOD's original purpose.

[boatsnguitars]

Then Jehovah God said: “It is not good for the man to continue to be alone. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.”+[/color]

Why did you cherry pick the part you want, and not quote the entire passage? Are you God's editor?

Genesis 2:18, 20-24 (NIV):
"The Lord God said, 'It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him'... But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man.' That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."

The text does identify Eve as Adam's helper, but this doesn't necessarily imply that she was serving in a subordinate role.

Genesis 3:16 (NIV):
"To the woman he said, 'I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor, you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.'"

Also, shows how ancient man tried to explain the pains of childbirth... And, why men have one less rib as Theists have believed for some 6000 years...

Men have one less rib?? News to me. Anyway, the husband ruling over his wife could be said to be the consequence of Eve's betrayal of God. In the new system of things no one will "rule" over anyone else. But it also gives a hint of the headship principle, formed at the beginning. (I Corinthians 11:3) The man is given the responsibility of caring for and protecting his family, and the wife is his supporter and helper.

Christians used to teach men had one less rib.

But anything could be said about it. Are we making up stories that sound good to us, or trying to learn the truth?
It could be said that Ancient man thought they ruled over women, so the misogynist view would be that this story confirms it and allows it. I'm glad you see it as a punishment - as a negative - not as a positive as many Christians teach.

Which begs the question, do you feel you are obligated to fulfill that punishment on your wife, and women in general, or do you refuse to play the misogynist game and allow women to not be ruled over by men?

Also, the story says he couldn't find a suitable helper. The story is interpreted as he couldn't find one, so he made a slave for him. That a suitable helper wasn't found.

Just to reiterate, you say, "The man is given the responsibility of caring for and protecting his family, and the wife is his supporter and helper."

As a punishment. You made that clear.

[onewithhim]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

An excuse for sure. I’ve even experienced christians who wronged someone saying, “It wasn’t me. It was my sin nature.” No asking forgiveness (why ask forgiveness for a nature you were born with?)

We must ask forgiveness because our sinful nature inclines us to do wrong things. Most of the time we don't mean to, but we do, and then ask God to forgive us. A Christian is wrong to blame what they do on their sinful nature. Jude indicated that it is not an excuse to sin....never may that happen. (Jude 3,4) We ask forgiveness because we love YHWH and want to please Him. If we mess up, we feel impelled to ask Him to keep us in His favor. There's a difference between inherited sin and willful sinning.

Do you consider yourself a Christian? Have you actually read the whole Bible? Just asking.

[Mae von H]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

An excuse for sure. I’ve even experienced christians who wronged someone saying, “It wasn’t me. It was my sin nature.” No asking forgiveness (why ask forgiveness for a nature you were born with?)

We must ask forgiveness because our sinful nature inclines us to do wrong things.

That’s not the reason the Bible gives as to why we sin. It says it’s because we want and don’t have.

Most of the time we don't mean to, but we do, and then ask God to forgive us.

Ah, the perfect example of this theology allowing people to excuse instead of admit their sin. “The thief didn’t mean it…the rapist didn’t mean it…” Leaves the pride completely in tact.

A Christian is wrong to blame what they do on their sinful nature.

You just did.

Jude indicated that it is not an excuse to sin....never may that happen. (Jude 3,4)

Then ought not say we sin because of some inborn error. You ought to say you sin because “you want and don’t have.”

We ask forgiveness because we love YHWH and want to please Him.

We “love” a being whose handle is four consonants which has no vowels so it cannot be spoken? Do you then write him letters since you can’t pronounce his handle? It’s better to love the being Jesus SPOKE of and um, loving said Being is not defined by Him as us admitting we didn’t “mean to do” wrong to others. Those who excuse themselves with “they didn’t mean it” aren’t asking forgiveness.

If we mess up, we feel impelled to ask Him to keep us in His favor. There's a difference between inherited sin and willful sinning.

Ah, now doing wrong is reduced to just “messing up” like leaving the kitchen a mess after cooking. Confessing “messing up” doesn’t result in His favor. That requires humbling.

Do you consider yourself a Christian? Have you actually read the whole Bible? Just asking.

I’ve read it through many times. Have you? If so, please provide a few OT and NT passages that tell a man that he sinned because of an inborn sin nature.

[Mae von H]

Then Jehovah God said: “It is not good for the man to continue to be alone. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.”+[/color]

Why did you cherry pick the part you want, and not quote the entire passage? Are you God's editor?

Genesis 2:18, 20-24 (NIV):
"The Lord God said, 'It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him'... But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man.' That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."

The text does identify Eve as Adam's helper, but this doesn't necessarily imply that she was serving in a subordinate role.

Genesis 3:16 (NIV):
"To the woman he said, 'I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor, you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.'"

Also, shows how ancient man tried to explain the pains of childbirth... And, why men have one less rib as Theists have believed for some 6000 years...

Men have one less rib?? News to me. Anyway, the husband ruling over his wife could be said to be the consequence of Eve's betrayal of God. In the new system of things no one will "rule" over anyone else. But it also gives a hint of the headship principle, formed at the beginning. (I Corinthians 11:3) The man is given the responsibility of caring for and protecting his family, and the wife is his supporter and helper.

Christians used to teach men had one less rib.

But anything could be said about it. Are we making up stories that sound good to us, or trying to learn the truth?
It could be said that Ancient man thought they ruled over women, so the misogynist view would be that this story confirms it and allows it. I'm glad you see it as a punishment - as a negative - not as a positive as many Christians teach.

Which begs the question, do you feel you are obligated to fulfill that punishment on your wife, and women in general, or do you refuse to play the misogynist game and allow women to not be ruled over by men?

Also, the story says he couldn't find a suitable helper. The story is interpreted as he couldn't find one, so he made a slave for him. That a suitable helper wasn't found.

Just to reiterate, you say, "The man is given the responsibility of caring for and protecting his family, and the wife is his supporter and helper."

As a punishment. You made that clear.

You are likely single. Certainly not a happily married woman. It’s not uncommon for singles to decry the devotion of married as servitude…..until they are loved and equally love someone. Then the desire to please makes those tasks that seem menial to singles into a delight to perform. Jacob loved Rachel such that 7 years of service were nothing to him.

[bjs1]

[Replying to Avoice in post #1]

Original sin is the doctrine that all people are infected by sin. Augustine of Hippo traced this back to the fall in Eden, but that’s more of a side note. The central doctrine is:
No one does what is right all the time. Everyone knowingly does the wrong thing at times.
When we do what is right, we don’t have completely pure motives. Even at our best, we are creatures of mixed motives. There is always a little bit of selfishness in there.
I am surprised by the amount of controversy this creates because, of all the Christian doctrines, this is the one that is supported by the greatest amount of empirical evidence.

[Mae von H]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

Such a concept inspires people to have hope. It inspires people to want to follow after Jesus Christ and do what he taught his disciples to do.

How come no one preaching in the New Testament ever said anything close to this when sharing the gospel? Jesus never said anything close to this.

People don’t have hope if you tell them that they have a moral inborn error. They give up and enjoy what they enjoyed anyway just without guilt as it’s not their fault.

An interesting study would be what God/Jesus actually said to people about their sin. From the top of my head:

woman at the well…she was not told her sin was due to an inborn moral error

Peter repenting….he was not comforted with “you didn’t mean it and it’s not your fault anyway”

Z in the tree…salvation came to him when he said he’d return all wrongfully accrued wealth…that’s not going to be a popular method

Acts 2 when they ask Peter what they must do…no they weren’t comforted with “you were all born with a sin nature”

Jesus and Nicodemus….no mention of a sin nature

And the most challenging for the sin nature theology is when God told Cain that sin was OUTSIDE of him wanting in.

[2ndpillar2]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

Hello. First off, I don't particularly like terms like original sin in discussions like this because they are so possibly broad in application and subjective; subject to interpretation. They may be useful in a broad sense, but that can be misleading if other implications are being made, as would be the case in the specific dogma of a specific group. It's best to circumnavigate any such dogma and go straight to the source, the Bible. Secondly, I don't take seriously anything any "church" (another broad and subjective term) says. Having said that, let's define sin. Sin is a transliteration, meaning to miss the target or set goal. For example, an archer who sinned didn't hit the target. Very simple. I sin against my boss if I'm late for work, against the government if I exceed the speed limit. The mark set by Jehovah God, in this case, was also simple. Don't touch or eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of what is good and what is bad. Doing so brought the foretold result of death to Adam, as opposed to the everlasting life he meant to have.

The question becomes have we been "infected with it?" I wouldn't use that term, because what actually happened is we inherited it. Think about the implications in modern language; infected being affected with a disease-causing organism and inherited being received as an heir at the death of the previous holder.

The Sin of Adam and Eve was to believe the "serpent", who said they would live forever if they believed him, and broke the rules given by God. That is the same message given by the false prophet Paul, and now his "many" followers, are on the wide road to "destruction" (Mt 7:12-15). They have substituted the objective laws given by God for the subjected laws of their own twisted minds and hearts. Apparently, that doesn't work out well. Just look at the "woke" whose manmade laws, aimed at curing every ill, are disastrous.

[onewithhim]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

An excuse for sure. I’ve even experienced christians who wronged someone saying, “It wasn’t me. It was my sin nature.” No asking forgiveness (why ask forgiveness for a nature you were born with?)

We must ask forgiveness because our sinful nature inclines us to do wrong things.

That’s not the reason the Bible gives as to why we sin. It says it’s because we want and don’t have.

Most of the time we don't mean to, but we do, and then ask God to forgive us.

Ah, the perfect example of this theology allowing people to excuse instead of admit their sin. “The thief didn’t mean it…the rapist didn’t mean it…” Leaves the pride completely in tact.

A Christian is wrong to blame what they do on their sinful nature.

You just did.

Jude indicated that it is not an excuse to sin....never may that happen. (Jude 3,4)

Then ought not say we sin because of some inborn error. You ought to say you sin because “you want and don’t have.”

We ask forgiveness because we love YHWH and want to please Him.

We “love” a being whose handle is four consonants which has no vowels so it cannot be spoken? Do you then write him letters since you can’t pronounce his handle? It’s better to love the being Jesus SPOKE of and um, loving said Being is not defined by Him as us admitting we didn’t “mean to do” wrong to others. Those who excuse themselves with “they didn’t mean it” aren’t asking forgiveness.

If we mess up, we feel impelled to ask Him to keep us in His favor. There's a difference between inherited sin and willful sinning.

Ah, now doing wrong is reduced to just “messing up” like leaving the kitchen a mess after cooking. Confessing “messing up” doesn’t result in His favor. That requires humbling.

Do you consider yourself a Christian? Have you actually read the whole Bible? Just asking.

I’ve read it through many times. Have you? If so, please provide a few OT and NT passages that tell a man that he sinned because of an inborn sin nature.

Yes, I have read the whole Bible. It's kind of funny that you haven't seen evidence throughout of man having an inborn sin nature.

"Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."..."For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one man many will be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:12,19)

Because of Adam's sin, he had to pass along to his offspring his sinful nature (because someone imperfect, after he sinned, cannot pass on perfection to his children). Therefore we are all born with a sinful inclination. But God doesn't expect us to be sinless in this life. Isn't that why He sent His Son to die for us so that we wouldn't have to die (because the wages of sin is death)? We can't use that as an excuse to willfully sin. As John wrote, there is sinning that incurs death and also sinning that does incur death. If we deliberately sin, then we are in line for death. No one can say that their inbred sinful nature "made them do it."

"If you see a Christian sinning in a way that does not end in death [inbred sin], you should ask God to forgive him and God will give him life, unless he has sinned that one fatal sin [deliberate sin]. But there is that one sin which ends in death [deliberate sin] and if he has done that, there is no use praying for him. Every wrong is a sin, of course. I'm not talking about these ordinary sins [inbred]; I am speaking of that one that ends in death," [deliberate sin]." (I John 5:16,17, Living Bible)

[Mae von H]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

An excuse for sure. I’ve even experienced christians who wronged someone saying, “It wasn’t me. It was my sin nature.” No asking forgiveness (why ask forgiveness for a nature you were born with?)

We must ask forgiveness because our sinful nature inclines us to do wrong things.

That’s not the reason the Bible gives as to why we sin. It says it’s because we want and don’t have.

Most of the time we don't mean to, but we do, and then ask God to forgive us.

Ah, the perfect example of this theology allowing people to excuse instead of admit their sin. “The thief didn’t mean it…the rapist didn’t mean it…” Leaves the pride completely in tact.

A Christian is wrong to blame what they do on their sinful nature.

You just did.

Jude indicated that it is not an excuse to sin....never may that happen. (Jude 3,4)

Then ought not say we sin because of some inborn error. You ought to say you sin because “you want and don’t have.”

We ask forgiveness because we love YHWH and want to please Him.

We “love” a being whose handle is four consonants which has no vowels so it cannot be spoken? Do you then write him letters since you can’t pronounce his handle? It’s better to love the being Jesus SPOKE of and um, loving said Being is not defined by Him as us admitting we didn’t “mean to do” wrong to others. Those who excuse themselves with “they didn’t mean it” aren’t asking forgiveness.

If we mess up, we feel impelled to ask Him to keep us in His favor. There's a difference between inherited sin and willful sinning.

Ah, now doing wrong is reduced to just “messing up” like leaving the kitchen a mess after cooking. Confessing “messing up” doesn’t result in His favor. That requires humbling.

Do you consider yourself a Christian? Have you actually read the whole Bible? Just asking.

I’ve read it through many times. Have you? If so, please provide a few OT and NT passages that tell a man that he sinned because of an inborn sin nature.

Yes, I have read the whole Bible. It's kind of funny that you haven't seen evidence throughout of man having an inborn sin nature.

I didn’t ask for “evidence” of your position. I asked for teachers/preachers in the Bible speaking out your position when they spoke of the subject. Of course anyone can twist the words.

"Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."...

. Notice sin entered THE WORLD not man himself just as God said to Cain. Sin was OUTSIDE of him and God Almighty said so in plain language.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one man many will be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:12,19)

Notice “many” not ALL. I believe you said no one can please God. Noah pleased God. Enoch pleased God. Daniel pleased God.

Because of Adam's sin, he had to pass along to his offspring his sinful nature (because someone imperfect, after he sinned, cannot pass on perfection to his children).

For that position you have NO quote nor “evidence” of that.

Therefore we are all born with a sinful inclination.

No Bible author said this which is why you have NO quote.

But God doesn't expect us to be sinless in this life.

Where did He say that?

Isn't that why He sent His Son to die for us so that we wouldn't have to die (because the wages of sin is death)?

No, He said he sent Jesus to free us from doing wrong to one other, not merely avoid the consequences.

We can't use that as an excuse to willfully sin. As John wrote, there is sinning that incurs death and also sinning that does incur death. If we deliberately sin, then we are in line for death. No one can say that their inbred sinful nature "made them do it."

"If you see a Christian sinning in a way that does not end in death [inbred sin], you should ask God to forgive him and God will give him life, unless he has sinned that one fatal sin [deliberate sin]. But there is that one sin which ends in death [deliberate sin] and if he has done that, there is no use praying for him. Every wrong is a sin, of course. I'm not talking about these ordinary sins [inbred]; I am speaking of that one that ends in death," [deliberate sin]." (I John 5:16,17, Living Bible)

Two responses, one is, do you excuse your rudeness above with telling yourself you didn’t “mean to be rude” and two, or do you excuse yourself by telling yourself it’s just your sin nature?

I think you do so because you don’t like someone challenging a much beloved comfort.

Regarding sin,”without holiness shall no man see God.” That is, no man can begin to approach that Hindu state of “one with him” who isn’t holy as God knows holy to be.