What's wrong with being gay?

[Daedalus X]

This thread is a continuation of an off topic conversation from here.

First, I think that we all agree that it's important to promote understanding, respect, and equality for all individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation. Everyone should be treated with dignity and allowed to express their identity without fear of discrimination or harm.


Question for debate is LGTBQIA2S+ a harmless social contagion, or are there serious unintended consequences awaiting the individuals and societies that are going down this road?

[Diogenes]

The gays had a much better life before 1965....

What is your basis for this claim? How do you define "much better life?"

... the vast majority of the LGBTQ2+ people were living satisfying monogamous lives with children and a spouse of the opposite sex.

What is your basis for this claim? Intuition would say that even if it were true [a dubious assumption] people forced to live a lie, a double life with a spouse and a secret gay lover on the side would be miserable compared a couple who could live openly with their sexuality.

I am a heterosexual male who has never had a homosexual relationship, nor desired one. Putting myself in the position of one you describe* as living with another guy as a "husband" despite being attracted to women sexually and not to my male spouse, it would be worse than miserable. It would be intolerable.
Why on Earth would you wish such misery on another?
And why do you care about another's sexual preferences?
As long as relationships are stable and loving, how is society impacted adversely by gay marriage?

We've heard your opinions. Do you have ANY facts to support any of those views.

______________________
*On the assumption that someone gay or 'queer' is sexually attracted to the same sex and not at all to someone of the other sex, I assume 'they' feel the same attractions I do to people of the opposite sex.

[Clownboat]

"To be clear, that does not mean the number of people who actually are LGBTQ has climbed that much in that time — or even that the number reflects the actual percentage of Americans who personally identify as LGBTQ. In some sense, “self-identifying” as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transsexual, even in a survey, is an act of feeling comfortable sharing that information with the broader public — and for some respondents, that may have become easier as same-sex marriage became a more accepted part of the culture."
source

.

To be clear, it is hard for me to believe that about 1 person in 4 over the age of 65 is so closeted that they will not even be willing to be honest in an anonymous poll. But, I suppose anything is possible. Take for example, as your sample American presidents who were elected in the 21st century. One, of the four, was a closet gay, although he was not yet 65, but he was close.

The reason given for older people being hesitant to identify as LGBTQ is fear of being outed but that no longer invites persecution or discrimination, but just the opposite a promotion, pay raises and social status. So, why the hesitancy? Could it be that older people don't want family, friends and co-workers to think of them as perverts? Yes, it is possible that older people still see LGBTQ as an undesirable taboo. As it should be.

Question for you Daedalus...
Could you walk in to a gay bar, look at a member of the same sex as you and 'choose' to get aroused?

I wouldn't have this ability, which for me, shows it is not a choice. Perhaps you are gay/bi though and could make such a choice? If so, I would defend your right to have a same sex marriage as I find it evil to restrict something I hold dear for myself to another member of society (exceptions to every rule of course).

[Daedalus X]

I wouldn't have this ability, which for me, shows it is not a choice.

Don't sell yourself short. You would be surprised at how much ability you could have if you just set your mind to it.

If so, I would defend your right to have a same sex marriage as I find it evil to restrict something I hold dear for myself to another member of society

I would not defend anyones right to be a pervert, drug addict or any negative behavior. I would not punish them either, the act is it's own punishment and these people can't be rescued, but rather I would work to prevent others from falling into that black hole in the future.

[Daedalus X]

What is your basis for this claim?

Your own words are the basis of this claim. You said "it would be intolerable" to live with someone from the wrong sex. And the survey said that 23% of the LGBTQ people over 65 were afraid to even admit to a random poll that they are LGBTQ. They are living an intolerable life with no sign that they are totally miserable. So, maybe they are not as miserable as you would like to think that they are.

[Clownboat]

I wouldn't have this ability, which for me, shows it is not a choice.

Don't sell yourself short. You would be surprised at how much ability you could have if you just set your mind to it.

What an arrogant reply, pretending to know me better than I know myself. I do not have the ability to choose to be aroused by men (as a man) no matter what you think. It is not a choice I could make. If you can make this choice, you are gay or bi and either way I hope you find happiness and I would find it to be an evil for anyone that would seek to restrict your happiness.

If so, I would defend your right to have a same sex marriage as I find it evil to restrict something I hold dear for myself to another member of society

I would not defend anyones right to be a pervert, drug addict or any negative behavior.

See the bold above. Do you really hold being a pervert, drug addict and a person with a negative behavior as something you hold dear for yourself? If this is what you mean, what is so precious about being a pervert for you?

I would not punish them either, the act is it's own punishment and these people can't be rescued, but rather I would work to prevent others from falling into that black hole in the future.

Please clarify... It seems that you are admitting to being a drug addicted pervert with negative behavior and the act of being such a thing is its own punishment. If you can't be rescued from it, how can you hope to prevent other from falling into this black hole?

Don't listen to hateful Christians that will tell you that you deserve to go to hell for having gay feelings. Some people can't choose to be gay (like myself), no harm if you are one of the many humans that happens to be gay though. You be you, just try not to cause unnecessary pain and suffering to your fellow humans would be my advice. If there is a Jesus, I believe he would agree with this.

[boatsnguitars]

I find your understanding of LGBTQ+ people to be tragically ignorant and bigoted.

Yes it is, my understanding and bias of LGBTQ+ people was formed in the early 1980's when my friends and coworkers began dying mysteriously. It was a time of high anxiety, and it did not help when Oprah said that 20% of straight people would be dead in 5 years.

Also, I think the ridiculous think about this "we are becoming feminized" is so subjective. Was David Lee Roth "feminine"? (or any of those 70-80s hair bands)? They were the epitome of a man at one point: Women wanted them, men wanted to be them.
If not, that, then look at the long history of men in powdered wigs, etc. But, I guess some people think Donald Trump, Charlie Kirk, Ray Comfort are "real men" - or for some reason - some men think that John Wayne, or Connor McGregor, or Ray Lewis are the epitome of being a man. They think warring, violence, muscles, anger, controlling women, lack of artistic talent, lack of education,etc. is what it means to be a "real man".

We live in a competitive world. A toxic masculine male will have a hard time finding success against men but he has a big advantage over women. A feminized man will be at a serious disadvantage aginst both toxic men and women. Good parents will not allow their boys to be feminized. It is like allowing your cat to go outside to play with the stray cats after having his claws clipped.

In reality, those men are toxic and the reason we keep going to war. If anything, we should be celebrating being more feminized. After all, what's wrong with women that we wouldn't want to share some of their qualities?

The world would be substantially better with more LGBTQ+ people and fewer toxic men, ignorant bigots, and rapey priests.

Wars are waged for economic reasons. Why do you think Putin wanted East Ukraine? Energy and minerals. Why did he feel he could get away with it? Because we had a feminized man in the WH, and an actual woman as VP. Biden even said to Putin that a small incursion would be fine.

History tells us that women leaders do not secure peace. https://qz.com/967895/throughout-histor ... r-than-men


Thatcher: "When you've spent half your political life dealing with humdrum issues like the environment, it's exciting to have a real crisis on your hands." -- commenting on the Falkland Islands war.


Golda Meir: 'We intend to remain alive. Our neighbors want to see us dead. This is not a question that leaves much room for compromise.'


Stahl: "We have heard that a half a million children have died [because of sanctions against Iraq]. I mean that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And--you know, is the price worth it?"
Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it."


And my favorite.

You think "feminized men" aren't competitive? That's laughably wrong.
I could name many feminine men, Queens, and for that matter, masculine females, androgynous people, etc who are successful by any measure.
What century do you live in?

Are you not aware of Elton John being wildly more successful than Ted Nugent? Or, take your pick.
Why did 90% of rock stars have long hair, and wear lipstick?
Don't you know that many women prefer "softer" men?
Not sure if you've crawled out of the cave, but the idea of men forcing themselves on women and dragging them back to their lair isn't the measure of manhood.

[Purple Knight]

I do not have the ability to choose to be aroused by men (as a man) no matter what you think. It is not a choice I could make.

I don't have this ability either. Neither do many gay men have the ability to change their sexuality, and that's the main reason why it is now regarded as criminal to try to educate people out of being gay in 22 states. You can't. And people who are straight and not bi, cannot be educated out of their sexuality either. (This is probably slightly less true for women than it is for men.)

When gay people genuinely did not possess equality, they would often plead that they couldn't help it. Now they're on top, with more political power, and those exact same pleas from the other side are ignored or marginalised.

It teaches cynics like me that there is no acceptance, no tolerance, only dominance, and everyone grubbing for it as hard as they can, any way they can, and exploiting the extremely stupid people who will move aside out of compassion.

Watching politics do their thing is like watching that one nasty clever kid play checkers with the really dumb one and just make up rules and change them as he goes along.

[Diogenes]

What is your basis for this claim?

Your own words are the basis of this claim. You said "it would be intolerable" to live with someone from the wrong sex. And the survey said that 23% of the LGBTQ people over 65 were afraid to even admit to a random poll that they are LGBTQ. They are living an intolerable life with no sign that they are totally miserable. So, maybe they are not as miserable as you would like to think that they are.

Apparently you have no basis for your claim that "The gays had a much better life before 1965...." Is that why you, out of NOTHING, again make a spurious claim without support. It is also telling that you use the wording "The gays." Never before have I heard anyone but a homophobic bigot refer to gay folk as "The Gays." This is a term that clearly labels them as "the other."

You also completely misunderstood (or knowingly perverted) what I wrote when I declared that I would find it intolerable to live the lie that I was happy if society somehow forced me to be in a romantically sexual and committed relationship with someone I had no sexual attraction to [in my case, any male].
You have consistently demonstrated you do not understand that for someone only attracted sexually to a member of the same sex, for that person it would be like a heterosexual male being attracted to another man. This is called 'empathy.' If you had empathy for others who are not the same as you, you would not be continuing with your contra factual claims.

This is why a majority of States have laws against some form of "conversion therapy."
https://www.lgbtmap.org/equality-maps/c ... on_therapy
This is why conversion therapy for minors is "pseudoscientific and abusive practice of attempting to change an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity...."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... on_therapy

Those forced to endure the perversion of "conversion therapy" consider it "torture."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/24/opin ... rture.html

[Daedalus X]

If so, I would defend your right to have a same sex marriage as I find it evil to restrict something I hold dear for myself to another member of society

Even if you hold gay marriage near and dear for yourself, it does not make it a human right. I think that it is an illness and/or perversion, and the people pushing it are in Lennon's words "useful idiots". The LGBTQ movement is useful to subvert our democracy as is all the other psychological operations that we face.

What an arrogant reply, pretending to know me better than I know myself. I do not have the ability to choose to be aroused by men (as a man) no matter what you think. It is not a choice I could make.

If a billionaire were to fall in love with you and ask to marry you, you might be tempted by a life on the French Rivera with all the great toys a person could ever want, the best sports cars, airplanes, yachts and anything that money can buy. At first you may have to do things you find repulsive, but over time you could condition yourself to enjoy it. Classical Conditioning: Sex & You

[Daedalus X]

Why on Earth would you wish such misery on another?

When did I do that?