What's wrong with being gay?

[Daedalus X]

This thread is a continuation of an off topic conversation from here.

First, I think that we all agree that it's important to promote understanding, respect, and equality for all individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation. Everyone should be treated with dignity and allowed to express their identity without fear of discrimination or harm.


Question for debate is LGTBQIA2S+ a harmless social contagion, or are there serious unintended consequences awaiting the individuals and societies that are going down this road?

[boatsnguitars]

The gays had a much better life before 1965, in fact the vast majority of the LGBTQ2+ people were living satisfying monogamous lives with children and a spouse of the opposite sex.

Simply wrong.

If a person does not value freedom, that would be a hard sell. But to someone who would be willing to escape slavery with nothing more than the shirt on ones back, that would be a 100% improvement.

That's my point! You claimed they progressed much faster than White people - OF COURSE THEY DID!!!! It's a pathetic argument to then say that 2023 if worse for PoC because they aren't progressing as fast as they did from the time they had NOTHING. That's what made your argument so weak.

The 3/5 compromise, was pushed by the free states to keep the slave states from being too powerful and enshrining slavery forever. Even then, the southern democrats won most of the presidential elections before the First Civil War.

Oh, you're one of those people who don't understand how the parties re-aligned.

There is actually a lot of white supremacists out there that just happen to have black skin. And even if there were more black supremacists, that would not mean anything.
If you search for them you will find a lot of them, and many are very wise.

Please, go on. Tell us more about your thoughts on race.

[brunumb]

The gays had a much better life before 1965, in fact the vast majority of the LGBTQ2+ people were living satisfying monogamous lives with children and a spouse of the opposite sex.

I hope you have some evidence to support those claims because it is complete and utter nonsense as far as I am concerned.

[Daedalus X]

Simply wrong.

I would beg to differ.



If you will notice that 30 young people identify as LGBTQ vs 7 for the oldest. Would you say that 23 LGBTQ people just suffered in silence over all these years? Or did they have normal family lives? Or is it the case that there just were less LGBTQ in the past, and LGBTQ is not a "born that way" characteristic?

That's my point! You claimed they progressed much faster than White people - OF COURSE THEY DID!!!! It's a pathetic argument to then say that 2023 if worse for PoC because they aren't progressing as fast as they did from the time they had NOTHING. That's what made your argument so weak.

So, you do agree that they made tremendous progress from the emancipation till the mid 1960s. When for some reason the advancement was halted, and they made very little relative progress after that. Which corresponds to the end of white oppression and the beginning of white handouts.

Oh, you're one of those people who don't understand how the parties re-aligned.

Yes, there was a realignment of the southern states. The white democrats left the racist party of slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and the kkk in favor of the party that better represented tolerance and the family values that became more important to them than skin color.

Please, go on. Tell us more about your thoughts on race.

They are not my thoughts, but rather the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture.

https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonian-ra ... es-1518333

[boatsnguitars]

Simply wrong.

I would beg to differ.



If you will notice that 30 young people identify as LGBTQ vs 7 for the oldest. Would you say that 23 LGBTQ people just suffered in silence over all these years? Or did they have normal family lives? Or is it the case that there just were less LGBTQ in the past, and LGBTQ is not a "born that way" characteristic?

I have no idea how you think you've made a point, or that the poll makes the point you think it makes, or how you've extrapolated the data to make the point you are trying to make.

You've asked a lot of questions, though, that's great. Care to answer a few of them?

That's my point! You claimed they progressed much faster than White people - OF COURSE THEY DID!!!! It's a pathetic argument to then say that 2023 if worse for PoC because they aren't progressing as fast as they did from the time they had NOTHING. That's what made your argument so weak.

So, you do agree that they made tremendous progress from the emancipation till the mid 1960s. When for some reason the advancement was halted, and they made very little relative progress after that. Which corresponds to the end of white oppression and the beginning of white handouts.

Again, I have no idea how you arrive at such absurd conclusions, or even what you think your point is.

I agree they made tremendous progress after they were released from Slavery. What else would you expect? For them to get worse than slavery? What could possibly be worse? Concentration camps are the only thing that might come to mind...

The beginning of the end of White oppression was the end of slavery. Slavery: an institution perpetuated by the white conservative class in America.

Once Liberals were able to stop Slavery, Blacks progressed quickly because they could actually own something. Yet, Conservatives fought against Black people every step of the way. Liberals tried to even the playing field, but Conservatives thought that Black people ought to raise themselves up by their non-existent boot straps - because they had no boots.

There is, honestly, no way for you to make Conservatives out to be the good guys in this. It was Liberals who liberated slaves, it was Progressives who fought for Civil Rights and Conservatives who fought against Civil Rights.

I think you know this, but have decided to look foolish.

Oh, you're one of those people who don't understand how the parties re-aligned.

Yes, there was a realignment of the southern states. The white democrats left the racist party of slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and the kkk in favor of the party that better represented tolerance and the family values that became more important to them than skin color.

You seem to be woefully ignorant on this topic. Why?

Please, go on. Tell us more about your thoughts on race.

They are not my thoughts, but rather the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture.

https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonian-ra ... es-1518333

In your mind, you think that cultural stereotypes perpetuated by the white majority and have subconsciously influenced how people think means that a Black person who believes the cultural lie is a White Supremacist?

I honestly cannot understand your perspective. Perhaps you can expound on your views, rather than post an infographic by the NMAAHC that seems to argue against your perspective?

Here is what the NMAAHC says (Which you say you agree with):
https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-abo ... /whiteness

At the National Museum of African American History and Culture, we believe that any productive conversation on race must start with honesty, respect for others, and an openness to ideas and information that provide new perspectives.

Whiteness and white racialized identity refer to the way that white people, their customs, culture, and beliefs operate as the standard by which all other groups of are compared. Whiteness is also at the core of understanding race in America. Whiteness and the normalization of white racial identity throughout America's history have created a culture where nonwhite persons are seen as inferior or abnormal.

This white-dominant culture also operates as a social mechanism that grants advantages to white people, since they can navigate society both by feeling normal and being viewed as normal. Persons who identify as white rarely have to think about their racial identity because they live within a culture where whiteness has been normalized.

Thinking about race is very different for nonwhite persons living in America. People of color must always consider their racial identity, whatever the situation, due to the systemic and interpersonal racism that still exists.

Whiteness (and its accepted normality) also exist as everyday microaggressions toward people of color. Acts of microaggressions include verbal, nonverbal, and environmental slights, snubs or insults toward nonwhites. Whether intentional or not, these attitudes communicate hostile, derogatory, or harmful messages.

"In this country, American means white. Everybody else has to hyphenate."
Toni Morrison

White Privilege
Since white people in America hold most of the political, institutional, and economic power, they receive advantages that nonwhite groups do not. These benefits and advantages, of varying degrees, are known as white privilege. For many white people, this can be hard to hear, understand, or accept - but it is true. If you are white in America, you have benefited from the color of your skin.

Stop and Think!
How does being white grant certain privileges? How might white people experience oppression through other social identities, e.g., class, gender, sexual orientation, religion, ability, etc.?

White people can possess other marginalized parts of their identity, but their race is not one of these. To learn more about how race intersects with our other identities, check out the section titled systems of oppression.

Being white does not mean you haven’t experienced hardships or oppression. Being white does mean you have not faced hardships or oppression based on the color of your skin. We need to be honest about the ways white people have benefited from racism so we can work toward an equitable, fair and just society.

In “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack,” scholar Peggy McIntosh writes, “White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, code books, visas, clothes, tools, and blank checks.” Here are some examples she gives on what white privilege looks like in day to day living:

I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed
I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race

Download “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack” by Peggy McIntosh

WATCH: White privilege and constructing white racial identity


Stop and Think!
What are some misconceptions about whiteness that DiAngelo or McIntosh have helped you unveil?

Why does understanding white privilege matter?

What is White nationalism?

White Dominant Culture
White dominant culture describes how white people and their practices, beliefs, and culture have been normalized over time and are now considered standard in the United States. As a result, all Americans have all adopted various aspects of white culture, including people of color.

White supremacy is an ideology where white people are believed to be superior to nonwhite people. This fallacy is rooted in the same scientific racism and pseudo-science used to justify slavery, imperialism, colonialism, and genocide at various times in throughout history. White supremacist ideologies and their followers continue to perpetuate the myth of white racial superiority.

The belief of white superiority has been part of the United States since its inception. The white European imperialists who settled here believed they were inherently superior to nonwhite groups. These beliefs justified atrocities like the genocide of Native Americans and nearly 250 years of African slavery. After slavery, white supremacist ideologies manifested into a series of laws that would limit the freedom of African Americans, known as Black Codes and Jim Crow. White supremacy and its legacy can still be found in our legal system and other institutions through coded language and targeted practices.

Direct and violent forms of racism that promote white supremacy have been on the rise in recent years. These acts are more directly linked to white nationalism. White nationalism is a concept born out of white supremacy. A key difference is a focus on nationhood. White nationalists in the United States advocate for a country that is only for the white race due to feelings of entitlement and racial superiority. They also believe that the diversity of people in the United States will lead to the destruction of whiteness and white culture - hence, the correlation to white supremacist ideology.


bell hooks explains systems of oppression through the idea “Interlocking systems of domination”


Internalization of Whiteness and White Dominant Culture

Racism is perpetuated by deeming whiteness as superior and other racial and ethnic groups as inferior. The prevalence of white dominant culture and racism leads to an internalized racial superiority for those who adhere to it. This internalized dominance "describes the experience and attitudes of those who are members of the dominant, privileged, or powerful identity groups. Members of the [dominant] group accept their group's socially superior status as normal and deserved." [as defined by CARED: Calgary Anti-Racism Education]

When people of a nondominant group (people of color) are discriminated against, targeted or oppressed over time, they often believe the myths and misinformation about their group. Known as internalized racism, it happens when an oppressed group believes the racial views that society communicates are true, and they act as if they were true.

Stop and Think!
How does white dominant culture leave others out?


Reflect
What are some of the disadvantages of not being sensitive or supportive of cultures and lifestyles of different ethnic and racial groups?

How can we begin to normalize cultural practices that are not related to white-dominant culture?

Confronting Whiteness

If you identify as white, acknowledging your white racial identity and its privileges is a crucial step to help end racism. Facing your whiteness is hard and can result in feelings of guilt, sadness, confusion, defensiveness, or fear. Dr. Robin DiAngelo coined the term white fragility to describe these feelings as "a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves." Since white people "live in a social environment that insulates them from race-based stress," whites are rarely challenged and have less of a tolerance to race-based stress.

For those of us who work to raise the racial consciousness of whites, simply getting whites to acknowledge that our race gives us advantages is a major effort. The defensiveness, denial, and resistance are deep.
Robin DiAngelo
“White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism”


The feelings associated with white fragility often derail conversations about race and serve to support white supremacy. While these feelings are natural human reactions, staying stuck in any of them hurts the process of creating a more equitable society. The defensiveness, guilt, or denial gets in the way of addressing the racism experienced by people of color.

For white people doing anti-racist and social justice work, the first meaningful step should be to recognize their fragility around racial issues and build their emotional stamina. “White Fragility” author Robin DiAngelo breaks it down.

Besides your own internal reflection, processing, and daily commitment to anti-racist work, try participating in affinity groups, or caucuses. These groups are people sharing common interests, backgrounds, or experiences, coming together to support each other.

Reflect
How does the concept of white supremacy relate to white privilege?
What are the dangers of politicians’ frequent use of racially coded language?

For Educators: An overwhelming majority of the nation's teachers are white. To learn about the impact of whiteness in the classroom and why this is troublesome to black students, read: "Why Diversity Matters: 5 Things We Know About How Black Students Benefit From Having Black Teachers."
two overlapping bubble chat icons, above one outlined in yellow, the other solid turquoise.
Let's Talk
For Concerned Citizens: Whiteness operates in covert and overt ways that affect all of us. It can appear as practices within an institution or accepted social norms. Since whiteness works almost invisibly, we may not always be aware of how it manifests in our daily lives. Thinking critically about your social conditioning and the values you have adopted as fact, ask yourself:
What are some aspects of whiteness you’ve internalized?
How can these be hurtful to you and others?
What are some ways you plan on combating them?
three overlapping square block icons, top one solid purple, second one solid turquoise, third and smallest one solid yellow.

Here's the document they refer to:
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
https://psychology.umbc.edu/files/2016/ ... h-1989.pdf

So, you agree with all that?

[Daedalus X]

If you will notice that 30 young people identify as LGBTQ vs 7 for the oldest. Would you say that 23 LGBTQ people just suffered in silence over all these years? Or did they have normal family lives? Or is it the case that there just were less LGBTQ in the past, and LGBTQ is not a "born that way" characteristic?

I have no idea how you think you've made a point, or that the poll makes the point you think it makes, or how you've extrapolated the data to make the point you are trying to make.

You've asked a lot of questions, though, that's great. Care to answer a few of them?

Communication can be a problem, but let's take this slowly.

Fact: The chart shows that 30% of people age 18-24 identify as LGBTQ. The chart also shows that 7% of people age 65+ identify as LGBTQ.

How do we explain that disparity? If LGBTQ is a genetic trait that people are born with, then we would expect that number to be about the same. So, why is it so different?

Some of the reasons that I can think of is that 23% of the people over 65 died from some LGBTQ related disease, such as suicide, VD or HIV/AIDS etc. Yet, I just don't think that the evidence supports that theory?

So, it is more likely that something has increased the rate of LGBTQ and it is not genetics alone. And we need to identify and counter that reason.

Most LGBTQ are happy to be what they are, as are drug addicts (they value the drugs more than the problems caused by the drugs). And I would have been content to leave them alone until they came after the innocent children, and we ended up in this trans-hell.

***TRIGER WARNING***DON'T CLICK THE LINK IF YOU ARE EASILY DISTURBED BY NASTY STUFF***
Welcome to trans-hell.
***TRIGER WARNING***DON'T CLICK THE LINK IF YOU ARE EASILY DISTURBED BY NASTY STUFF***

[Miles]

Simply wrong.

I would beg to differ.



If you will notice that 30 young people identify as LGBTQ vs 7 for the oldest. Would you say that 23 LGBTQ people just suffered in silence over all these years? Or did they have normal family lives? Or is it the case that there just were less LGBTQ in the past, and LGBTQ is not a "born that way" characteristic?

First of all 30% is not the same as "30 young people," nor is 7% the same as "7 for the oldest."

And, from what I assume is the same sources as your image:

"To be clear, that does not mean the number of people who actually are LGBTQ has climbed that much in that time — or even that the number reflects the actual percentage of Americans who personally identify as LGBTQ. In some sense, “self-identifying” as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transsexual, even in a survey, is an act of feeling comfortable sharing that information with the broader public — and for some respondents, that may have become easier as same-sex marriage became a more accepted part of the culture."
source

.

[boatsnguitars]

Simply wrong.

I would beg to differ.



If you will notice that 30 young people identify as LGBTQ vs 7 for the oldest. Would you say that 23 LGBTQ people just suffered in silence over all these years? Or did they have normal family lives? Or is it the case that there just were less LGBTQ in the past, and LGBTQ is not a "born that way" characteristic?

First of all 30% is not the same as "30 young people," nor is 7% the same as "7 for the oldest."

And, from what I assume is the same sources as your image:

"To be clear, that does not mean the number of people who actually are LGBTQ has climbed that much in that time — or even that the number reflects the actual percentage of Americans who personally identify as LGBTQ. In some sense, “self-identifying” as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transsexual, even in a survey, is an act of feeling comfortable sharing that information with the broader public — and for some respondents, that may have become easier as same-sex marriage became a more accepted part of the culture."
source

.

Exactly as I expected. He didn't even read his own source. Self pwns are the worst pwns.

[boatsnguitars]

That's my point! You claimed they progressed much faster than White people - OF COURSE THEY DID!!!! It's a pathetic argument to then say that 2023 if worse for PoC because they aren't progressing as fast as they did from the time they had NOTHING. That's what made your argument so weak.

So, you do agree that they made tremendous progress from the emancipation till the mid 1960s. When for some reason the advancement was halted, and they made very little relative progress after that. Which corresponds to the end of white oppression and the beginning of white handouts.

This bears a recap

Why do you think that White oppression ended? And what handouts do think stopped them from progressing?

I don't think I've ever seen such a simplistic, reductionist view since David Duke.

Please elaborate.

[Daedalus X]

"To be clear, that does not mean the number of people who actually are LGBTQ has climbed that much in that time — or even that the number reflects the actual percentage of Americans who personally identify as LGBTQ. In some sense, “self-identifying” as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transsexual, even in a survey, is an act of feeling comfortable sharing that information with the broader public — and for some respondents, that may have become easier as same-sex marriage became a more accepted part of the culture."
source

.

To be clear, it is hard for me to believe that about 1 person in 4 over the age of 65 is so closeted that they will not even be willing to be honest in an anonymous poll. But, I suppose anything is possible. Take for example, as your sample American presidents who were elected in the 21st century. One, of the four, was a closet gay, although he was not yet 65, but he was close.

The reason given for older people being hesitant to identify as LGBTQ is fear of being outed but that no longer invites persecution or discrimination, but just the opposite a promotion, pay raises and social status. So, why the hesitancy? Could it be that older people don't want family, friends and co-workers to think of them as perverts? Yes, it is possible that older people still see LGBTQ as an undesirable taboo. As it should be.

[Miles]

"To be clear, that does not mean the number of people who actually are LGBTQ has climbed that much in that time — or even that the number reflects the actual percentage of Americans who personally identify as LGBTQ. In some sense, “self-identifying” as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transsexual, even in a survey, is an act of feeling comfortable sharing that information with the broader public — and for some respondents, that may have become easier as same-sex marriage became a more accepted part of the culture."
source

.

To be clear, it is hard for me to believe that about 1 person in 4 over the age of 65 is so closeted that they will not even be willing to be honest in an anonymous poll.

Okay.

But, I suppose anything is possible.

Not anything, but probably more than you might think.

Take for example, as your sample American presidents who were elected in the 21st century. One, of the four, was a closet gay, although he was not yet 65, but he was close.

Boy, considering Trump's well known flings, "extracurricular activities," hanky-panky, cheatings, female fondlings, and machismo posturing who would have thought.

The reason given for older people being hesitant to identify as LGBTQ is fear of being outed but that no longer invites persecution or discrimination, but just the opposite a promotion, pay raises and social status.

I have no idea whom you include as "older people" but lacking any evidence for your "opposite" claim, I don't care.

So, why the hesitancy? Could it be that older people don't want family, friends and co-workers to think of them as perverts? Yes, it is possible that older people still see LGBTQ as an undesirable taboo. As it should be.

Curious; what are the desirable taboos? Name a few if you can.

And, of course, why is that LGBTQ should be seen as an undesirable taboo by older people? Do they get an extra serving of gruel if they do?

.