God's Need for Loyalty?

[Skeptical]

I know that it has been argued and debated that God had to test Adam and Eve in order to see if they were loyal to him or not, but could the human race have gotten along alright if God didn't have the need to know what their loyalty was? Because it still hasn't been adequately explained as to why God needed to be sure of the first human pair's loyalty. However, it has only been dogmatically said that this is what God wanted. Therefore, could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God, or is this something that God needed to make himself feel more secure? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Skeptical]

I know that it has been argued and debated that God had to test Adam and Eve in order to see if they were loyal to him or not, but could the human race have gotten along alright if God didn't have the need to know what their loyalty was? Because it still hasn't been adequately explained as to why God needed to be sure of the first human pair's loyalty. However, it has only been dogmatically said that this is what God wanted. Therefore, could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God, or is this something that God needed to make himself feel more secure? Inquiring minds want to know.

I don't see any evidence of Adam and Eve being tested for loyalty. I can see that as part of it but it is more a test of whether they will be truthful and stand for what is right. Now that is what God values and then yes you could argue it is a test of loyalty but if you and I both stand for truth and mercy and justice then I would say you are loyal to me and me to you but it is a loyalty of us both standing strong not some sort of subservient loyalty.

Truthful? And stand for what is right? Because according to Genesis 2 and 3, there was no "truthfulness" and there was no "right" until God made an issue out of it. Therefore, if God had never made an issue out of it in Genesis 2:17, then there would never have been an issue of what is right and truthful... because reality itself would have been right or truthful... HOWEVER... according to Genesis 2:17, God is the one who brought up the issues of death and disobedience. Issues that would have NEVER EXISTED if God had not created them to exist.

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Wootah in post #5]
It seems they were being tested on what they would do with their freedom of choice. Obey and live or rebel and die.

Well, as I pointed out in my post #11, there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue. However, the way you're making it sound like is as if humankind was some sort of 'experiment' by God that God had to 'test' to make sure whether it wanted to make the right choices or not... However, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT IF GOD HAD NOT MADE AN ISSUE OUT OF IT, THEN THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO REASON FOR ADAM AND EVE TO HAVE REBELED.

God doesn't need their loyalty but they needed to be loyal to the One that gave them life and all the good things they had as He had already shown His loyalty to them by they good things they already had, including an entire planet.

Of course, he needed their loyalty... In order for his original purpose for earth and humankind to be fulfilled. He needed Jesus' loyalty, he needed his servants' loyalty because if not, then that would have made God a liar or a failure as far as his original purpose is concerned.

Isaiah 55:11

Webster's Bible Translation
So shall my word be that proceedeth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Job 2:3-5

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

[Wootah]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #11]

It was a test of whether Adam would be the king of the garden or not and he failed.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #10]
Its not a stawman, its that if you look at mankind's history your question has been answered that God doesn't need our loyalty but apparently you can't see it. It is us that need to be loyal to him if we want a better world.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Wootah in post #5]
It seems they were being tested on what they would do with their freedom of choice. Obey and live or rebel and die.

Well, as I pointed out in my post #11, there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue.

Where do you read that in the Bible? Or is this an opinion? How do you know that a test to obey wasn't always in God's plan even before they were created? Scripture please.

[2timothy316]

God doesn't need their loyalty but they needed to be loyal to the One that gave them life and all the good things they had as He had already shown His loyalty to them by they good things they already had, including an entire planet.

Of course, he needed their loyalty... In order for his original purpose for earth and humankind to be fulfilled. He needed Jesus' loyalty, he needed his servants' loyalty because if not, then that would have made God a liar or a failure as far as his original purpose is concerned.

If everyone stopped being loyal nothing happens to God. Do you understand the difference between need and want? Need would mean that God can't go on without loyalty. Want is He can go on with or without our loyalty. You do realize that He could take away freewill and force everyone to do what He WANTS, right? Jehovah didn't need Nebuchadnezzar to be loyal for the prophecy for him to act like an animal for 7 years to come true. Dan 4:25. There doesn't have to be any loyal people to preach the Good News either to accomplish what God wants. Luke 19:40. Before Jesus was born even if every Jew was to stop being loyal and stop having children to discontinue the line of Abraham, that wouldn't stop God's purpose. Matthew 3:9. There is nothing Jehovah needs from anyone to accomplish His will and nothing can stop Him.

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #10]
Its not a stawman, its that if you look at mankind's history your question has been answered that God doesn't need our loyalty but apparently you can't see it. It is us that need to be loyal to him if we want a better world.

So, I guess the scriptures that I quoted at Isaiah 55:11 and Job 2:3-5 don't apply to this? Yes, no?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #10]
Its not a stawman, its that if you look at mankind's history your question has been answered that God doesn't need our loyalty but apparently you can't see it. It is us that need to be loyal to him if we want a better world.

So, I guess the scriptures that I quoted at Isaiah 55:11 and Job 2:3-5 don't apply to this? Yes, no?

The scriptures you quoted do not prove God needs loyalty. If the quote from Isaiah proves anything it is that what He WANTS to happen will happen.
Not sure you point on Job. He was loyal but it doesn't say anywhere that Jehovah NEED his loyalty.

It seems you're under the impression that God needs humans, angels, etc. They could all be gone tomorrow and Jehovah will keep going un-phased. There is no scripture that says God needs anything for His benefit, so that he can keep living, or needs anything at all.

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Wootah in post #5]
It seems they were being tested on what they would do with their freedom of choice. Obey and live or rebel and die.

Well, as I pointed out in my post #11, there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue.

Where do you read that in the Bible? Or is this an opinion? How do you know that a test to obey wasn't always in God's plan even before they were created? Scripture please.

But what difference would it have made if 'a test to obey was always in God's plan even before they were created'? Because (and to answer your first question) Genesis 2:17 clearly shows that there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue... Or is verse 17 an idea that God had gotten from someone else?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Wootah in post #5]
It seems they were being tested on what they would do with their freedom of choice. Obey and live or rebel and die.

Well, as I pointed out in my post #11, there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue.

Where do you read that in the Bible? Or is this an opinion? How do you know that a test to obey wasn't always in God's plan even before they were created? Scripture please.

But what difference would it have made if 'a test to obey was always in God's plan even before they were created'? Because (and to answer your first question) Genesis 2:17 clearly shows that there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue... Or is verse 17 an idea that God had gotten from someone else?

Again, you're speculating, "there never would have been an issue of rebelling". Where did you learn this? Not the Bible.