Trinity

[Ross]

Where did this concept come from?

I would suggest it began with John 1:1

[Ross]

The trinity is an erroneous doctrine It is not present in the OT. Just the opposite. The God of Israel was ONE. Not three. Not three in one. Not one in three. Not triplicate. Not more than one. One.

Tam,
The Trinity teaches that God is one. One being.
Setting 'Trinity' aside for a moment; as I have demonstrated, John 1:1 says that the pre-existent Jesus "was God."
If you refute that, then how are you going to explain the statement (in context to John chapter one and Genesis chapter one, and without diving all over the other parts of the Bible for out of context support?)

[DB]

Where did this concept come from?

I would suggest it began with John 1:1

I don't think that is the original source for Trinity, because disciples of Jesus originally thought there is only one true God.

yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Cor. 8:6

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5

1 Cor 8:6 seems to point to the Father as God. 1 Tim 2:5 points to Jesus as God. Acts 5:3-4 points to the Holy Spirit as God.

There is only one GOD. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all called God. They are distinct individuals sharing the same nature. They work in perfect unity as a team for our benefit.

That’s where we should leave it. We are incapable of understanding it. It will remain a mystery until Jesus comes again. Meanwhile, instead of arguing about, we need to accept by faith what the Scriptures say. There is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Accept it by faith. The end!

First of all, one cannot be convicted of something that they cannot understand - thus, it is a perverse principle to tell someone to accept something that appears implausible to them.
Secondly, the verses that you quoted by no means necessitate, or even imply, anything that you asserted. Your exegesis is highly questionable.
Thirdly, you failed to mention the plethora of texts that fundamentally state that Jesus is subordinate to the Father, both on earth and in heaven. Which, largely outweigh in both number and principle any text that allegedly claims that Jesus is God.

[DB]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #63]

No one is questioning whether or not the Bible is the word of God - it is your interpretation of it that is in question, obviously.

[DB]

The trinity is an erroneous doctrine It is not present in the OT. Just the opposite. The God of Israel was ONE. Not three. Not three in one. Not one in three. Not triplicate. Not more than one. One.

Tam,
The Trinity teaches that God is one. One being.
Setting 'Trinity' aside for a moment; as I have demonstrated, John 1:1 says that the pre-existent Jesus "was God."
If you refute that, then how are you going to explain the statement (in context to John chapter one and Genesis chapter one, and without diving all over the other parts of the Bible for out of context support?)

You haven't demonstrated anything, obviously. Attempting to prove implausible concepts like god-man, or hypostatic union, or eternally begotten would require volumes of proof text. And, yet, you, in all your hermeneutical prowess, offer only two or three verses. And, if that wasn't utterly impetuous and reckless enough, again, the conclusions drawn from your exegesis shows such a lack of wisdom and insight to both the word of God, and to reality itself.

[DB]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #55]

Good Morning Aquinas!

I rarely, if ever, read links, but I did read the two you posted. I enjoyed them. Both are interesting, but I would need to read them again to fully grasp.

A point that Jehovah’s Witnesses and many others miss is, “The word person when applied to God is not used in the same way we call humans persons.” And therein lies much of their confusion.

I am by far no expert, but I believe the Scriptures are clear. They call Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all three, GOD. Anyone claiming otherwise either denies or distorts what the Scriptures say. The Scriptures say there is ONE GOD, yet we see Father, Son and Holy Spirit as distinct and separate individuals each having the same nature and essence. Paul writes of Jesus, “ For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,” (Col. 2:9)

I simply accept what the Scriptures say on faith.

You need to accept what the Scriptures say based on wisdom - don't corrupt what the meaning of 'faith' is.

[Ross]

You haven't demonstrated anything, obviously. Attempting to prove implausible concepts like god-man, or hypostatic union, or eternally begotten would require volumes of proof text. And, yet, you, in all your hermeneutical prowess, offer only two or three verses. And, if that wasn't utterly impetuous and reckless enough, again, the conclusions drawn from your exegesis shows such a lack of wisdom and insight to both the word of God, and to reality itself.

Thank you for your words. I thought that the scriptures spoke quite clearly, remained in context, and sufficed; rather than finding the need to gather support from all over the remainder of the Bible. I can provide volumes of proof text that The Word is YHWH but have chosen not to because then the focus of the verse under discussion is clouded in a mist of other debate.

The majority of humankind past and present who have studied the word of God have drawn the same conclusions; that Jesus was a part of, and also God. As for implausible concepts, it is naïve to limit The Almighty God to ones tiny inadequate brain and earthly limited intellect and perception of physics and biology.

Perhaps you would care to offer your own explanation of John 1:1 and how it explains Genesis 1:1 rather than attempting to insult me.

[Ross]

Attempting to prove implausible concepts like god-man, ....... you, in all your hermeneutical prowess, offer only two or three verses.

John 1:1

"In the beginning was The Word
And The Word was with God
And The Word was God"

John 1:14
"And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us"

Two verses are enough, so John thought.
God became man. Crystal clear!

[DB]

Attempting to prove implausible concepts like god-man, ....... you, in all your hermeneutical prowess, offer only two or three verses.

John 1:1

"In the beginning was The Word
And The Word was with God
And The Word was God"

John 1:14
"And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us"

Two verses are enough, so John thought.
God became man. Crystal clear!

It doesn't work! If Jesus is the word in the first clause, then he cannot be both with God, and be God - get it?
Or, if God is the word in the first clause, the He cannot be both with God, and be God - get it?

Proper rendering:
In the beginning was the word - God's will and purpose for His creation
And the word was with God - as was wisdom, righteousness, and love....
And the word was God - the word was divine, sublime, holy and righteous

[Ross]

It doesn't work! If Jesus is the word in the first clause, then he cannot be both with God, and be God - get it?
Or, if God is the word in the first clause, the He cannot be both with God, and be God - get it?

"In the beginning was The Word
And The Word was with God
And The Word was God"

No. What I 'get' is the fact that the Prologue of John is self explanatory. I still don't even need another verse to explain this. I will reference John 1:14 again, this time in full though:

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

The God in John1:1 (b) is here identified for us. It is The Father. The Word, the pre existent Christ who is also God was with the Father.

If you need more scripture, here is one, John 17:5

"Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had alongside you before the world was"

[Ross]

John 1:1
Proper rendering:
In the beginning was the word - God's will and purpose for His creation
And the word was with God - as was wisdom, righteousness, and love....
And the word was God - the word was divine, sublime, holy and righteous

This is the teaching of a couple of late Church Fathers, only two, I recall, and they denied the pre existence of The Christ.

I prefer the self explanatory description in the Bible referring to the once again glorified Jesus Christ in heaven.

Revelation 19: 11, 13:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True,
He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God."