Trinity

[Ross]

Where did this concept come from?

I would suggest it began with John 1:1

[Ross]

Obviously, you don't wish to discuss John 1:1c with me. I not only told you that my studies are in my own words, but I gave you a very clear, understandable, brief rephrasing of an important aspect of my study of John 1:1c (PRIMER) in my last post. You have ignored it entirely.

I did not ignore it. I read it and rejected it because it, if accepted, would make the verse polytheistic. (Two Gods.)

The verse is self explanatory, clear and simple, and like the rest of the Bible, does not need to be explained away with summersaults, grammatical illusions, and added words which the NWT is notorious for.

[Ross]

Obviously, you don't wish to discuss John 1:1c with me.

I just did there. It is all about John 1:1 c. Is it not to your liking?

So here briefly and in easy to understand language is my answer to what I consider to be your and the Jehovah's Witnesses erroneous adaptation of John 1:1 c:

JOHN 1:1 literal translation to English:

(a) IN BEGINNING WAS THE WORD
(b) AND THE WORD WAS FACE TO FACE WITH THE GOD
(C) AND GOD WAS THE WORD

For those who may not understand, the definite article that Tigger is referring to is 'THE'.

(a) THE WORD
(b) THE WORD, THE GOD
(c) THE WORD

J.W.ORG and from what I can gather also Tigger, conclude that because there is a definite article applied to GOD in (b) but not to GOD in (c), then this must indicate that THE GOD of (b) is THE only Almighty God, and that the mere GOD of (c) is a lesser GOD, an inferior GOD, a subordinate lower in rank Godlike one; 'a god.'

This however misses the whole glorious message of the Prologue of John.

It must not be overlooked that THE WORD is the subject and central character of the verse and the chapter, that he is referenced with the definite article three times in the verse, and THE GOD ( I think all would agree, being The Father) once.

If John had said " AND THE WORD WAS THE GOD" this would have meant that the Word was the Father and the Father was THE WORD."

The carefully constructed (c) "AND GOD WAS THE WORD" or with grammar corrected into English: "AND THE WORD WAS GOD" was never meant to convey a meaning that there was two Gods, or an Almighty and a lesser ' a god.'

The obvious and correct understanding of the text, is that "GOD" in John 1:1 c is referring to THE WORD'S nature, being, quality, divine essence. THE WORD is also GOD, absolute deity. "THE WORD WAS GOD"

[Ross]

John 1:1

(a) IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD
(b) AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD
(C) AND THE WORD WAS GOD

There is significance here in John's usage of 'was.'
While Genesis uses 'beginning' in a reference to the beginning of creation, 'beginning' here reaches beyond this. The next two verses state:

John 1: 2, 3,

"The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

A clear and undeniable Biblical testimony that no created thing came forth other than by and through The Word, the pre-existing Christ.
And a crisp denial that the Word could have been created or made. A creature would not have been called theos in such a context.

So when John uses and chooses the term 'was' in relation to The Word, it means that he existed before any creation. He is timeless, he 'was'. Face to face, or in communion with the Father.

From all eternity The Word co-existed with The Father because he was a part of and also GOD. Not a fellow or pal, but in some sense a second, a part of Gods eternal self.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to Ross in post #1]

The Scriptures call Father, Son, and Holy Spirit GOD.

The Scriptures portray Father, Son and Holy Spirit as ONE GOD. They function as an absolute unity, each sharing identical divine natures. They work together as ONE for the benefit of mankind.

The Scriptures teach there is ONE GOD, yet we see Father, Son and Holy Spirit portrayed as distinct and separate individuals.

In the Scriptures, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are represented as ONE (James 2:19; Dt. 6:4; Jn. 10:30). They are one in nature, sharing in the essence of deity (Col 2:9, Romans 1:20).

I accept Father, Son and Holy Spirit are GOD because the Scriptures call them God. I accept the three are ONE GOD in nature and essence because the Scriptures show me they are. It is by faith in God’s word that I accept these things.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Ross in post #1]

I would argue that it is eternal because there is no other way to honestly look at God, not if one is intellectually honest and thinks philosophically, i.e. has the faculties to apprehend the ideas.

I prove it here.

I would start with the proper understanding of the Trinity, which I explain here in very simple terms in under 500 words and two pictures.

https://www.freelymeditate.com/single-p ... he-trinity

And here is why it must be the case - https://www.freelymeditate.com/single-p ... he-trinity

I used to be very anti-trinity, but I never understood it as taught by the church. Most don't ever bother learning the actual doctrine, not even many Catholics.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #55]

Good Morning Aquinas!

I rarely, if ever, read links, but I did read the two you posted. I enjoyed them. Both are interesting, but I would need to read them again to fully grasp.

A point that Jehovah’s Witnesses and many others miss is, “The word person when applied to God is not used in the same way we call humans persons.” And therein lies much of their confusion.

I am by far no expert, but I believe the Scriptures are clear. They call Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all three, GOD. Anyone claiming otherwise either denies or distorts what the Scriptures say. The Scriptures say there is ONE GOD, yet we see Father, Son and Holy Spirit as distinct and separate individuals each having the same nature and essence. Paul writes of Jesus, “ For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,” (Col. 2:9)

I simply accept what the Scriptures say on faith.

[Miles]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #55]

Good Morning Aquinas!

I rarely, if ever, read links, but I did read the two you posted. I enjoyed them. Both are interesting, but I would need to read them again to fully grasp.

A point that Jehovah’s Witnesses and many others miss is, “The word person when applied to God is not used in the same way we call humans persons.” And therein lies much of their confusion.

I am by far no expert, but I believe the Scriptures are clear. They call Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all three, GOD. Anyone claiming otherwise either denies or distorts what the Scriptures say. The Scriptures say there is ONE GOD, yet we see Father, Son and Holy Spirit as distinct and separate individuals each having the same nature and essence. Paul writes of Jesus, “ For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,” (Col. 2:9)

I simply accept what the Scriptures say on faith.

Accepting something on faith is a poor way to justifying the truth or credibility of anything, because anything, absolutely anything, can be accepted on faith, from woodland fairies to flying unicorns. Would having faith that woodland fairies and flying unicorns existed make such existence even remotely true? Of course not. " Faith is the excuse people give for trusting a belief when they have no good evidence of its possible truth. Faith is the desperate man's cornerstone of knowledge.

.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #55]

Good Morning Aquinas!

I rarely, if ever, read links, but I did read the two you posted. I enjoyed them. Both are interesting, but I would need to read them again to fully grasp.

A point that Jehovah’s Witnesses and many others miss is, “The word person when applied to God is not used in the same way we call humans persons.” And therein lies much of their confusion.

I am by far no expert, but I believe the Scriptures are clear. They call Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all three, GOD. Anyone claiming otherwise either denies or distorts what the Scriptures say. The Scriptures say there is ONE GOD, yet we see Father, Son and Holy Spirit as distinct and separate individuals each having the same nature and essence. Paul writes of Jesus, “ For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,” (Col. 2:9)

I simply accept what the Scriptures say on faith.

Thank you. I hope they might help.

I was also guilty of attacking a strawman once also because I didn't understand the doctrine, probably because I never studied it. Rather I heard the phrase. God is one but three persons, then without knowing what the church meant by person, I developed a very incorrect idea of Trinity. That incorrect idea I had was not logical, so I thought the doctrine was illogical, that was until I studied it.

[Conversator]

Usually, I hear Christians arguing how the word elohim proves the Trinity in the Old Testament. I've never heard a satisfactory answer to this, but here goes: God called Moses elohim in Exodus 4:16. Moses is one, not many.
Nowhere do Christians argue elohim denotes plurality when applied to a human individual ( many people are called elohim other than Moses ), or that it denotes plurality when applied to Chemosh, or any other heathen deity. Why does God alone get this plurality with the word elohim? Christian apologetics is a curious thing indeed.

[William]

It's like the line in the song: "We are Family Guy" - the "we" denotes the plural and the "family guy" denotes singular...

To answer the OPQ, the concept came from humans trying to figure out the nature of a god-concept which came from the Hebrews "The LORD is ONE" and mixed in with the Gentiles and their many-gods concept.

Neither concept is incorrect, except maybe as stand-alone, for each concept compliments the other when the concepts are properly aligned.

The "Us" doesn't reference any particular number which can be assigned to the nature of GOD, for we do not know how many individual parts were involved in the initial creative impulse in designing this universe.

What it does indicate is that there was a Mind, there was Instruction and there was the Doing.

And after that initial Doing was Done - there was rest before the next epoch really got under way, and more Doing was Done.

[Given the thread of YHVH's influence re the human aspect of this image, at least 2 more can be added to the trinity idea...the human man and woman, made in the image of...somehow lost the knowledge, or maybe never knew the knowledge and having to work it out...]

It is all about aligning one's individual mind with the overall Mind and thus being counted as part of the "Us" team, Doing The One's Thing, Together

Or as biblical writer of John put it:

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

This idea extends into the Family of YHVH who are of the same mind as the mind of YHVH. "Us" "We" et al, make up the extension of the mind of YHVH into the world of men. "Us" denotes many parts, which all could not have been, if not for the three initial parts.