The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #1144]

God is not a king in a literal sense, but by analogy for God is above all, so God is not literally reigning.

He is figuratively reigning ?

He reigns by analogy.

So he is reigning analogically?

I must say, the Bible clearly states that Jesus literally reigns in these last days before Armageddon. He now reigns over his church and after Armageddon he will reign over the entire earth, with his co-rulers. Then after the 1,000-year reign, he will "hand over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and authority and power....When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinthians 15:24,28)

Looks to me like literal reigning. Daniel 2:44 and Isaiah 9:6,7 bear this out, wouldn't you concede?

[MissKate13]

[Replying to tam in post #1189]

Kate wrote: The Scriptures clearly state that the kingdom is here now. If you are one of His sheep you have been taken out of darkness and have been translated into the Kingdom of our dear Lord and Savior (Colossians 1:13).

John tells us in Revelation 1:9 that he, along with his brothers in Christ, was a partaker of trouble and tribulation in the kingdom (Revelation 1:9)

The author of Hebrews writes, “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” (Hebrews 12:28).

Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.” (Mark 9:1). We see the fulfillment of Jesus’ words on Pentecost. Who can deny that the kingdom came with the power of the Holy Spirit?

Can you refute God’s words in the above passages?

TAM WROTE:

“We can also know that the thousand years (however long a time that might be) has not yet begun, because the Adversary is locked away in the Abyss before that time, then released at the end of that time. Yet currently, the Adversary is free to roam about.”

Kate wrote: When Jesus died on the cross, He bound Satan by limiting his power. This is not to say Satan has no power at all. He does. He continues to tempt, but no longer can he control people against their will as he did during the time Jesus walked the earth. Demon possession is no more.

Jesus makes it clear in Matthew 12:28-29. We know the kingdom had come upon the people in His day because He cast out demons. He has bound the strong man (Satan) and plundered his house.

28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 “Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.” (Matthew 12:28-29)

Jesus rendered Satan powerless. He limited him by His death and resurrection. Satan no longer has power of death.

“14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,…”.(Hebrews 2:14-15)

The only power Satan has over us is what we give him (1 Peter 5:8-9). We can resist and he will flee.    Consider the church. Neither Satan or anyone has been able to STOP the church.  We’re still here. Satan is bound. The only power he has now is to tempt.

Christ’s reign is now! After Jesus’ ascension into heaven, Paul tells us Jesus is currently reigning. “For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death” (I Corinthians 15:25-26). The end of his reign comes when death is conquered and that takes place at Christ’s second coming. “Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power” (I Corinthians 15:24). Christ’s reign cannot begin at his return, because his return marks the end of the world. “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up” (II Peter 3:10).

We must let the plain literal language of Scripture define the kingdom and Christ’s reign, and not the figurative language of signs and symbols. The “thousand years” of Revelation 20 symbolizes the full length of time God has determined the length of time Christ will reign over His spiritual kingdom here on earth. It began on Pentecost AD 33 and will continue until Christ’s second coming.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #1189]

Kate wrote: The Scriptures clearly state that the kingdom is here now. If you are one of His sheep you have been taken out of darkness and have been translated into the Kingdom of our dear Lord and Savior (Colossians 1:13).

John tells us in Revelation 1:9 that he, along with his brothers in Christ, was a partaker of trouble and tribulation in the kingdom (Revelation 1:9)

The author of Hebrews writes, “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” (Hebrews 12:28).

Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.” (Mark 9:1). We see the fulfillment of Jesus’ words on Pentecost. Who can deny that the kingdom came with the power of the Holy Spirit?

Can you refute God’s words in the above passages?

I have no desire to refute those passages (though the second is not specifically in present tense and the third can also be understood as the time Christ returns, which John of Patmos saw in Revelation when he was in the spirit on the Lord's Day).

Regardless, as I said earlier:

The Kingdom is also within us - if Christ and God are in us.

That is here and now.

But Christ will also return (as I am sure you agree) and establish His Kingdom and reign upon the earth (and His Bride - made up of people from all nations, tribes, tongues - will reign with Him as king-priests for a thousand years).

TAM WROTE:

“We can also know that the thousand years (however long a time that might be) has not yet begun, because the Adversary is locked away in the Abyss before that time, then released at the end of that time. Yet currently, the Adversary is free to roam about.”

Kate wrote: When Jesus died on the cross, He bound Satan by limiting his power. This is not to say Satan has no power at all. He does. He continues to tempt, but no longer can he control people against their will as he did during the time Jesus walked the earth. Demon possession is no more.

This is someone's interpretation. But there is no room for the Adversary to be out and roaming about in the passage from Revelation that I posted in the previous post. He is cast into the abyss which is locked and sealed over him. That has not happened. Please note: he is cast there - not to prevent possession - but to keep him from DECEIVING the nations. That is the thing about men interpreting for themselves, they always miss something. Many things can be made to 'sound' right, but that does not make them true.

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time. Rev 20:2, 3

That has not yet happened.

(If you go back to Revelation 12, the dragon (Satan) is waging war against the woman and her offspring: those who hold fast their testimony about Christ, and keep God's commands. He cannot be bound and imprisoned in the abyss if he is free to wage war against us.)

Jesus makes it clear in Matthew 12:28-29. We know the kingdom had come upon the people in His day because He cast out demons. He has bound the strong man (Satan) and plundered his house.

28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 “Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.” (Matthew 12:28-29)

The full context is with regard to the Pharisees accusing Christ of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebul:

“Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

“Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

It was not just a matter of driving out demons (or why would he mention the others who could do that), but it was by whom those demons were being cast out.

And Satan had not yet been bound at that time. So being able to cast out demons does not equate to Satan having been bound in the Abyss.

Jesus rendered Satan powerless. He limited him by His death and resurrection. Satan no longer has power of death.

“14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,…”.(Hebrews 2:14-15)

The only power Satan has over us is what we give him (1 Peter 5:8-9). We can resist and he will flee.    Consider the church. Neither Satan or anyone has been able to STOP the church.  We’re still here. Satan is bound. The only power he has now is to tempt.

But he is not imprisoned in the abyss. He still pursues us, tries to get us to 'curse God and die' (aka, give up our faith). He cannot kill us. But he also was not permitted to kill Job, if you recall.

Christ’s reign is now!

He is King, yes. He has not returned and exercised that authority upon the earth just yet though. His Bride is not reigning as king-priests upon the earth just yet (we have not yet been 'taken up' and changed; and we are still in training).

After Jesus’ ascension into heaven, Paul tells us Jesus is currently reigning. “For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death” (I Corinthians 15:25-26).

See above.

The end of his reign comes when death is conquered and that takes place at Christ’s second coming.

His reign does not end when He returns. See sheep and goats parable. This is pretty clear in that account:

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne.

He does not vacate His throne. He sits upon it.

Please also note His words to the seven churches when speaking about the timing of when His Church/Bride/Brothers will reign (Rev 2 and 3):

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

I will give; does my will to the end (these are both future tense, and this is written after His death and resurrection and ascension).

We are in TRAINING now. He is subduing His Bride, teaching us peace, training and refining us now (for when we reign with Him upon the earth for a thousand years).

“Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power” (I Corinthians 15:24). Christ’s reign cannot begin at his return, because his return marks the end of the world.

The end of things as we know it - because He begins to exercise HIS authority upon the earth. He shares that reign with His Bride for the thousand years.

Paul is listing things that occur in order, here, but it is not a detailed or complete account, and it does not state how much time passes in between those things. Just look at the fuller passage: How much time will have passed between Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of those who belong to Him?

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Plus, please note that Paul says here that we who belong to Him will be made alive 'when he comes'. That is the first resurrection (those in Christ who are still alive when He returns will be taken up and 'changed' at that time). The first resurrection occurs then when Christ returns - and Revelation states the first resurrection occurs at the start of the thousand years.

Therefore:

Christ's return = the start of the thousand years.

We must let the plain literal language of Scripture define the kingdom and Christ’s reign, and not the figurative language of signs and symbols. The “thousand years” of Revelation 20 symbolizes

You understand that you are doing the EXACT things you just said not to do?

The plain and literal language of a "thousand years" is a thousand years. You have turned the thousand years into a symbol of "the full length of time God has determined the length of time Christ will reign over His spiritual kingdom here on earth. It began on Pentecost AD 33 and will continue until Christ’s second coming."


Now, I don't know if the 'thousand years' is an exact 'thousand years'. But it does not begin until Christ returns.


And though Christ does hand the Kingdom back to His Father at some point, the Father also gives it back to His Son - because there is no end to Christ's reign (supporting scriptures all given in the previous post).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[MissKate13]

[Replying to tam in post #1193]

You wrote: “But Christ will also return (as I am sure you agree) and establish His Kingdom and reign upon the earth (and His Bride - made up of people from all nations, tribes, tongues - will reign with Him as king-priests for a thousand years).”

Kate: NO, I don’t agree that when Christ returns, He will establish His kingdom on earth. He’s already done that. He established His spiritual kingdom on earth Pentecost AD 33. How many times do you think Jesus needs to establish His kingdom? It’s already been done.

You wrote: We can’t be in the thousand year reign of Christ because Satan has not been cast down into the abyss.

Kate: You must have missed 2 Peter 2:4, which tells us where those disobedient angels, including Satan are. “4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell,a placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;” I told you in my last post that Satan is bound. He does not have the power he once had. Jesus defeated Satan when He arose from the death. I also told you he can still tempt, but that’s it. He is in Tartarus and will be loosed for a little while before Jesus’ second coming. Satan will remain in Tartarus until that time. At the final judgement, Satan and His angels will be thrown into Geennan where they will be tormented eternally.

You wrote: He is King, yes. He has not returned and exercised that authority upon the earth just yet though. His Bride is not reigning as king-priests upon the earth just yet (we have not yet been 'taken up' and changed; and we are still in training).

Kate: I never said Jesus has returned. Jehovah’s Witnesses falsely claim Jesus returned in 1914. I vehemently disagree with them.

You question the authority of Jesus, King of Kings? What do you mean He hasn’t exercised His authority? God declared His authority when Jesus came out of the waters of baptism, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,” (Matthew 3:17). He did so again at Jesus’ transfiguation, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” (Matthew 17:5). The authority of Jesus came from being the Son of God, deity in the flesh. Whatever makes God who He is, Jesus had it and had it fully (John 1:1-3). This continues to be true today of His deity and His authority (Matthew 28:18). Jesus has authority to forgive sins and does so on a daily basis. If Jesus chose to, He could strike sinners dead, but instead, He chooses to be patient and longsuffering in hopes they will repent.

If you had said that not all things have been put under His feet at this time, I would have agreed, but to say He is not exercising His authority now is entirely incorrect.

Here is the order of events that will occur at the end of time.
1. The dead will be raised, both the just and the unjust (John 5:28-29). Those who are alive when He comes will be changed (I Corinthians 15:50-53). The judgement will occur (Matthew 25:31-46).

2. Christ’s kingdom will be delivered to God, at which time Jesus become subject to Him who put all things under Him (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

3. The world will be destroyed. Peter wrote the following, “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”

Not one word is said about Jesus setting up another kingdom on earth. There is no need to. The kingdom He established on Pentecost (during the time of the Roman Empire) is still here and will last FOREVER as Daniel teaches (Daniel 2:44)

Blessings,
Kate

[JehovahsWitness]

Kate: NO, I don’t agree that when Christ returns, He will establish His kingdom on earth. He’s already done that. He established His spiritual kingdom on earth Pentecost AD 33.

That's spiritual kingdom over his believing followers , but what about the literal kingdom that will do the following ?

ISAIAH 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end

ISIAIAH 11 : 9 They will not cause any harm Or any ruin in all my holy mountain, because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah

PROVERBS 2: 21, 22

For only the upright will reside in the earth and the blameless will remain in it. As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth ...

Are you suggesting these scriptures have already been fulfilled ?

[JehovahsWitness]

3. The world will be destroyed.

Do you mean the planet earth? Are you suggesting this'our planet earth will be destroyed? If so, what about the following ?

ECCLESIATES 1:4 - ESV

A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever

Further, If God destroys the earth how can he rule over it forever?


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[OneWay]

3. The world will be destroyed.

Do you mean the planet earth? If God destroys the earth how can he rule over it forever?

How come you do not believe all things are possible to God?

[JehovahsWitness]

3. The world will be destroyed.

Do you mean the planet earth? If God destroys the earth how can he rule over it forever?

How come you do not believe all things are possible to God?

Including lie?


See edit above.

[JehovahsWitness]

You claim that Jesus rule over the congrgation of believers is the fulfillment of DANIEL 2:44, but what about the following

DANIEL 2: 44 b

It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever...

Are you suggesting that there are no alternative rulerships in existence at the present time? Even though scripture says the exact opposite ?

EPHESIANS 6:12

We have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places

If Paul wrote to the Ephesians AFTER Pentecost, and Pentecost was the fulfillment of DANIEL 2v44, why did he indicate the continued existence of other kingdoms?

[JehovahsWitness]

... He bound Satan by limiting his power. ...

You suggest that the thousand year reign has began because Satans powers are limited. But Revelation does not indicate a limited to Satans power but rather complete and utter restriction.


DOES BEING BOUND CHAINS AND THROWN INTO A DEEP PIT WITH ANY POSSIBILITY OF GETTING OUT DENIED SOUND LIKE "LIMITED" OR INACTIVATED?





JW



Is Satans activity merely curbed during Jesus millenium rule or completly terminated ?
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