In The Beginning...

[William]

Question For Debate:



Resources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... imulation/
https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory
https://www.simulation-argument.com/

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #170]

Are you ready to move on with The Garden Story?

Sure. Lay out how you think the context shows that Adam didn’t know it was important to obey YHVH.

Our discussion so far re the relationship between Adam and YHVH.

Tanager: I think it could be a poetic retelling of one actual event or a poetic story of the universal human condition to try to create good and evil for ourselves rather than relying on YHVH’s view of good and evil.

William: So are you saying that the part of the story which has YHVH instructing Adam, on what NOT to do, is a real event rather than a poetic story?
If so, can you map out and deliver the actual circumstance to which the overall story is a poetic rendition of?

Tanager: Why not both? Why not YHVH really has instructed humans (or even an original Adam), but this is a poetic retelling of it? It would map onto a specific time with Adam or all the times with us that we sense what not to do?

William: What is this 'sense of what not to do'? This supposes that the individual personality can hear YHVH's voice. Is this something you believe is the case?


William: No foul was done by YHVH by withholding pertinent information from Adam even that the information could have helped Adam resist temptation.
Therefore, according to YHVH's agenda, while the withholding of information didn't help Adam resist temptation, nor did it prevent YHVH's agenda from being enacted.

Tanager: I do not think our “sense of what not to do” supposes hearing YHVH’s audible voice, if you mean that. I don’t hear an audible voice, but believe I can often sense when something is clearly YHVH’s voice in my head (so to speak) versus my own.

I also do not think YHVH withheld any pertinent information in this story. Adam and Eve had everything they needed to resist temptation.

William: Do you think Adam knew WHY it was important to trust in YHVH's word?

If so, please show us in the story, where Adam knew why it was important.

Tanager: Genesis 2:17 when YHVH says if you eat of the tree you will die. This is a spiritual death that will, therefore, lead to physical death as well (being banished from eating of the tree of life, of being immortal).

There isn’t a verse that says “Adam understood that blah, blah, blah,” if you mean that, though. That’s not a problem because it also doesn’t say “Adam didn’t understand blah, blah, blah.” I think, all else being equal, the author would assume the reader would assume Adam understands it unless otherwise told.

William: Assumption is problematic. Further to that, we have your comment that the garden story isn't a literal occurrence, but a poetic one which represents in a figurative manner, an apparent 'fall' which can be legitimately recognized as fictional representation of a fictional concept.

Tanager: I think this story shows that YHVH’s agenda is that people would understand good and evil the way YHVH understands it (and act on it).

William: YHVH has always understood YHVH's self and why YHVH understands good and evil the way YHVH does.

Tanager: Yes, I agree. But humans haven’t. That’s a reason why I think we are eternally ontologically separate agents from YHVH.

William: Assumption is problematic.

Tanager: Perhaps I should have used “expect” to be clearer in my meaning. We are more rational to believe that Adam understood why it was important to trust YHVH than to believe Adam didn’t understand it.

William: Further to that, we have your comment that the garden story isn't a literal occurrence, but a poetic one which represents in a figurative manner, an apparent 'fall' which can be legitimately recognized as fictional representation of a fictional concept.

Tanager: I never said it wasn’t a literal occurrence. I said I believe it was probably a poetic re-telling of a literal occurrence or a poetic telling of a universal human experience of choosing good and evil for ourselves rather than relying on YHVH. Even in the latter, this isn’t relating a fictional concept, but truth through a fictional medium.

William: It is more rationally honest to follow the storyline and see where Adam used assumption and made the mistake of "going elsewhere" instead of staying close to YHVH.

Tanager: It is more rationally honest to follow the storyline. Stories don’t spell everything out, though. This story doesn’t spell out a direct answer to the question we are asking right here, so however one wants to answer that question, they will need to look at the whole context to truly follow the storyline.

That Adam didn’t know it was important to trust YHVH completely goes against that context.

William: So you claim. I see no accompanying reasoning for your declaration Tanager, so for now, have nothing more to add.

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[William]

Following the storyline, the reason I do not think that Adam understood why it was important to listen to YHVH's messages, is that the design of Adam's body-set prohibited any access to Adam having a conscious recollection of a prior existence.

Essentially, because Adam had a beginning, this meant that initially Adam had nothing to go by in which to distinguish right from wrong [good from evil] and thus would not have understood, because the knowledge simply wasn't there for him to have any understanding about.

The storyline ["truth through a fictional medium." as you put it] shows the reader that the personality of the character called "Adam", started out his experience in a state of Tabula Rasa.

From your own argument so far, we disagree.

In the story you may be able to point to a passage which identifies that Adam did possess the knowledge from the beginning, and if so, we can examine that idea more fully.

I acknowledge that you have already said that the story of the garden has to be taken in context with the whole story. I take it you mean the whole of the Bible?

However, without something tangible from the Garden Story being able to be identified as key evidence that Adam did indeed understand from the beginning why it was important to listen to YHVH's messages, I would have to take the overall storyline of the Bible as something akin to misinformation based upon misunderstanding.

[The Tanager]

Following the storyline, the reason I do not think that Adam understood why it was important to listen to YHVH's messages, is that the design of Adam's body-set prohibited any access to Adam having a conscious recollection of a prior existence.

What in the storyline makes you think Adam’s body-set prohibited any access to Adam having a conscious recollection of a prior existence? The storyline says nothing about a prior existence, it says nothing about prohibiting access to this prior existence, and Adam's creation is very much set up as a new creature, just like all the other creations before it.

Essentially, because Adam had a beginning, this meant that initially Adam had nothing to go by in which to distinguish right from wrong [good from evil] and thus would not have understood, because the knowledge simply wasn't there for him to have any understanding about.

Adam knew what YHVH wanted him to do (1:28, 2:15), knew YHVH cared enough about him to seek a partner for him rather than leaving him alone (2:18), and YHVH told him that eating of that fruit would bring death (2:16-17). It’s clear that Eve knows this death is not desirable because the serpent tries to convince her that it won’t lead to death (3:4).

The context of having a punishment for their disobedience also adds to how Adam and Eve knew enough to warrant punishment because the God of the Torah isn’t a random God, punishing people for no reason. When Adam and Eve get punished, he doesn’t say “you gave us nothing to distinguish right from wrong” or anything like that.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #173]

Following the storyline, the reason I do not think that Adam understood why it was important to listen to YHVH's messages, is that the design of Adam's body-set prohibited any access to Adam having a conscious recollection of a prior existence.

What in the storyline makes you think Adam’s body-set prohibited any access to Adam having a conscious recollection of a prior existence?

The Breath of YHVH which gave life to the body set.

The breath itself = the conscious awareness within the body set.

The storyline says nothing about a prior existence, it says nothing about prohibiting access to this prior existence, and Adam's creation is very much set up as a new creature, just like all the other creations before it.

Adam - in context - is the personality being grown through the use of both the body set and the Breath of YHVH.

As such, the personality [Adam] has no recollection of ever existing before, because - as you point out - the personality is new and never existed before the body set + the Breath of YHVH gave Adam an awareness of his own existence.

Therefore, the Breath of YHVH was not known or its purpose understood by the new personality called Adam.
Without the breath of YHVH, the personality could not develop self awareness and with self awareness, it would be possible for the Adam personality to understand that there was a fundamental aspect to his nature of which was eternal - and thus - had a prior existence.

The body set was designed to prohibit this realization - but not in a permanent way. The realization could come naturally enough as long as Adam continued to listen to YHVH, and since that was not the case, the realization never happened...at least - not for Adam in the Garden setting, and perhaps not at all throughout his whole lifetime.

Essentially, because Adam had a beginning, this meant that initially Adam had nothing to go by in which to distinguish right from wrong [good from evil] and thus would not have understood, because the knowledge simply wasn't there for him to have any understanding about.

Adam knew what YHVH wanted him to do (1:28, 2:15), knew YHVH cared enough about him to seek a partner for him rather than leaving him alone (2:18), and YHVH told him that eating of that fruit would bring death (2:16-17). It’s clear that Eve knows this death is not desirable because the serpent tries to convince her that it won’t lead to death (3:4).

I did not say that Adam did not KNOW what YHVH had told him. I said that Adam did not understand the knowledge because he did not yet understand why it was important to listen to YHVH's messages, as he did not yet have any example in which to make any comparison by.

The context of having a punishment for their disobedience also adds to how Adam and Eve knew enough to warrant punishment because the God of the Torah isn’t a random God, punishing people for no reason. When Adam and Eve get punished, he doesn’t say “you gave us nothing to distinguish right from wrong” or anything like that.

The punishments were for their going elsewhere for instruction instead of trusting the instruction they had from YHVH.
It was the very thing which allowed them to understand because the punishment itself was the thing which gave them a means to compare, and thus THEN understand why it was important not to listen to instruction from somewhere else other that from YHVH.

_______________________

Even if at this point we still disagree as to the nature of YHVH's Breath, we can still carry on and see if there is anything else we do agree on and perhaps that will open a door into us revisiting the substance of YHVH's Breath.

_______________________


Based upon memory of prior conversations we have had on this YHVH-Breath disagreement;

My understanding of the YHVH-Breath is that it is the necessary ingredient for animation of the body set and consciousness re the mind re the individual personality.
As such, while YHVH-Breath provides the propellent for the subsequent animating of the body-set and conscious thinking, it is not responsible for the choices of the personality growing within the body set, nor for the thoughts that the personality acts upon contrary to YHVH.

If we can agree with this, all the better...

_______________________

[The Tanager]

The Breath of YHVH which gave life to the body set.

The breath itself = the conscious awareness within the body set.

What in the storyline makes you think the breath was a conscious being that pre-existed being put into the body set?

I did not say that Adam did not KNOW what YHVH had told him. I said that Adam did not understand the knowledge because he did not yet understand why it was important to listen to YHVH's messages, as he did not yet have any example in which to make any comparison by.

YHVH told them why it was important to listen to YHVH’s message, so that they wouldn’t experience death. In Eve’s encounter, she shows she knows the importance of listening to YHVH’s command. One doesn’t need an experiential comparison to understand this importance.

The punishments were for their going elsewhere for instruction instead of trusting the instruction they had from YHVH.
It was the very thing which allowed them to understand because the punishment itself was the thing which gave them a means to compare, and thus THEN understand why it was important not to listen to instruction from somewhere else other that from YHVH.

The God of the Torah isn’t one that punishes those who don’t have any reason to know; punishments always follow people who YHVH expects to obey the law/command/etc.

Even if at this point we still disagree as to the nature of YHVH's Breath, we can still carry on and see if there is anything else we do agree on and perhaps that will open a door into us revisiting the substance of YHVH's Breath.

Okay.

Based upon memory of prior conversations we have had on this YHVH-Breath disagreement;

My understanding of the YHVH-Breath is that it is the necessary ingredient for animation of the body set and consciousness re the mind re the individual personality.
As such, while YHVH-Breath provides the propellent for the subsequent animating of the body-set and conscious thinking, it is not responsible for the choices of the personality growing within the body set, nor for the thoughts that the personality acts upon contrary to YHVH.

If we can agree with this, all the better...

I would say something similar, but we seem to mean different things by that phrasing as evidenced by your believing the breath of YHVH is something that consciously pre-exists Adam.

[William]

YHVH told them why it was important to listen to YHVH’s message, so that they wouldn’t experience death.

As I pointed out, having knowledge does not equate to having understanding of that knowledge.

Where in the storyline, did they get the understanding of what death was?

Perhaps we can agree not to conflate knowledge with understanding knowledge.

YHVH isn’t one that punishes those who don’t have any reason to know; punishments always follow people who YHVH expects to obey the law/command/etc.

I am not arguing otherwise.

Obviously the punishment was the very thing which gave Adam the understanding.

My understanding of the YHVH-Breath is that it is the necessary ingredient for animation of the body set and consciousness re the mind re the individual personality.
As such, while YHVH-Breath provides the propellent for the subsequent animating of the body-set and conscious thinking, it is not responsible for the choices of the personality growing within the body set, nor for the thoughts that the personality acts upon contrary to YHVH.

If we can agree with this, all the better...

I would say something similar, but we seem to mean different things by that phrasing as evidenced by your believing the breath of YHVH is something that consciously pre-exists Adam.

If we accept YHVH's breath as an interface device between the newly forming conscious awareness of the personality "Adam" and YHVH's own consciousness, we could agree that the interface is itself conscious of being "Of YHVH's consciousness".

[The Tanager]

As I pointed out, having knowledge does not equate to having understanding of that knowledge.

Where in the storyline, did they get the understanding of what death was?

So, YHVH told them to not do something because it leads to death, knowing that they didn’t understand what the concept meant? And then punish them for not following YHVH’s directions. And this follows the storyline? What specific verse(s) point to these things?

If we accept YHVH's breath as an interface device between the newly forming conscious awareness of the personality "Adam" and YHVH's own consciousness, we could agree that the interface is itself conscious of being "Of YHVH's consciousness".

Why should we accept that?

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #177]
Adams knowledge of what death was.

As I pointed out, having knowledge does not equate to having understanding of that knowledge.

Where in the storyline, did they get the understanding of what death was?

So, YHVH told them to not do something because it leads to death, knowing that they didn’t understand what the concept meant?

Yes. The point was not whether Adam knew, but that Adam followed YHVH's instructions.

And then punish them for not following YHVH’s directions.

Yes. That is the story.

And this follows the storyline? What specific verse(s) point to these things?

The story specific is vague on details. If there is anything in the story that you can point to which would verify that Adam knew what death was, we can look into that.

If not, then I see no reason to think Adam understood what death was.
___________________________
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The Breath of YHVH.

If we accept YHVH's breath as an interface device between the newly forming conscious awareness of the personality "Adam" and YHVH's own consciousness, we could agree that the interface is itself conscious of being "Of YHVH's consciousness".

And the LORD YHVH formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Why should we accept that?

And the LORD YHVH took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

That is the purpose of examining what little is revealed, in the storyline.

My first question re that, would be;

Q: How did Adam understand language?

Clearly the story tells us that Adam understood language

And the LORD YHVH commanded Adam, saying,

So we can agree that Adam understood what YHVH spoke to Adam.



We also know that Adam was the only sentient being in The Garden, and that - even with the voice of YHVH teaching him stuff - Adam was lonely and so YHVH created animals to help alleviate Adams loneliness.

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

We know also, that Adam had the ability to name the animals of the garden that YHVH had provided to help Adam with his loneliness.

And out of the ground the LORD YHVH formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; ...

And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

As the story indicates, even with the other animals created to alleviate Adam's loneliness.

Even the Serpent - another sentient being YHVH made from the dust and placed in The Garden, and one which understood language and Adam could converse with - was not able to fill this void which was obviously still missing in Adam's world.

Herein, we can pause and examine the man Adam, and understand that with the greatest teacher-voice in the universe gifting Adam with the ability to understand and use language and have basic critical thinking skills, Adam got lonely.

YHVH creates tasks for Adam with the idea that the tasks should occupy Adams intellect sufficiently for the loneliness to subside.

Adam didn't even need to search the Garden and find the animals, in order to name them.

...and [YHVH] brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof

The storyline tells us that Adam was intelligent and able to learn from YHVH.

It is apparent in the storyline, that without The Breath of YHVH, this would not have been possible for Adam to achieve. He would not have been able to learn things.

Therefore, I can accept that The Breath of YHVH acts as an interface device between the newly forming conscious awareness of the personality "Adam" and YHVH's own consciousness.

I see no practical reason why we cannot agree that the interface is itself conscious of being "Of YHVH's consciousness" and that it was the primary source of instruction - where Adam formed his intellectual abilities and mindful concepts before expressing these into the outside environment of The Garden.

What is noticeable about the style of The Garden Story is that it is presented in a bullet-point manner.
As such, if it were told verbatim around a campfire, it would be over in a matter of minutes, and leave the listener with more questions than it gives answers to.
That is what we have to work with.

Potential agreement List;

1: Adam understood language.
2: The Garden Story is written in a bullet-point Style
Agreed?

[The Tanager]

It is apparent in the storyline, that without The Breath of YHVH, this would not have been possible for Adam to achieve. He would not have been able to learn things.

He would not have been able to do anything; he wouldn't be a 'he' but an 'it'; he would have just been a lump of dirt.

Therefore, I can accept that The Breath of YHVH acts as an interface device between the newly forming conscious awareness of the personality "Adam" and YHVH's own consciousness.

How does that follow? How did you get from "Adam couldn't be intelligent without getting the breath of YHVH" to this breath being a self-aware interface device?

What is noticeable about the style of The Garden Story is that it is presented in a bullet-point manner.
As such, if it were told verbatim around a campfire, it would be over in a matter of minutes, and leave the listener with more questions than it gives answers to.
That is what we have to work with.

It's a narrative. A quick narrative that doesn't answer every question, sure, but I don't think "bullet-point" is accurate.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #179]

Is there any reason why you are unable to address the other points being made Tanager?

It is apparent in the storyline, that without The Breath of YHVH, this would not have been possible for Adam to achieve. He would not have been able to learn things.

He would not have been able to do anything; he wouldn't be a 'he' but an 'it'; he would have just been a lump of dirt.

How does that logically follow? Why did you write 'he' would have just been a lump of dirt after writing "he wouldn't be a 'he' but an 'it';"

Therefore, I can accept that The Breath of YHVH acts as an interface device between the newly forming conscious awareness of the personality "Adam" and YHVH's own consciousness.

How does that follow? How did you get from "Adam couldn't be intelligent without getting the breath of YHVH" to this breath being a self-aware interface device?

You said as much yourself. A piece of dirt is all that the body set is, until the interface brings it online.

Potential agreement List;

1: Adam understood language.

Agreed?