A Promise Unkept

[Miles]

Matthew 18:19 came up in a discussion the other day. It was being argued that while at one time god may have cared about mankind, he has since lost all interest in us, As evidence is his complete disregard of the promise he made (in his persona as Jesus) to grant prayers. It was pointed out that as much as peace on earth was prayed for, god has never granted it. That no matter how much two parents prayed for the recovery of their dying child, god let her die anyway. That no matter how much two children prayed for the return of their runaway pet Rover, god never saw fit to bring him back

Because a scriptural passage may read differently depending on which Bible one reads, I've listed six slightly different versions here so as to make it clear what Jesus is saying.

Matthew 18:19
(ERV)
To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

(NABRE)
Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

(NRSV)
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

(KJV)
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(NMB)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree in earth about any manner of thing, whatsoever they desire, it shall be given them by my Father who is in heaven.

(RSVCE)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.



So, what do you think happened here?

A) Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

B) Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #60]

That is not the issue as what I have made of studying the Bible.

I'm not sure I understand this but if I read it to mean 'this is not the issue that I have when studying the bible'. Is that correct?

The issue is have YOU studied the Bible to make something of it?

Again, not sure I understand. Are you asking if this is an issue I've made when studying the bible (it being making it say what I want it to say)?
If so, I suspect that (making it say what you want it to say) happens to everyone - you included - to some degree. Otherwise, we would be 100% unbiased. And no one is, including you, no matter how much you say otherwise. Rather that's an outright lie on your part (which I don't believe, though that's only based on good faith, not first hand knowledge or trust) or biased in some fashion (a lot more likely) remains to be seen.
For me, when I read and studied the bible, I had understandings based on a lot of outside and internal stimuli. No where have I said I'm 100% right or wrong and or you're (or someone else) is 100% wrong or right. The bible is highly subject and entirely personal. All we can do, as individuals, is try to understand the bible (if you want) and understand other people, trusting both, assuming we know trust isn't always placed in the correct place.

The thread is not about "all things" is it? It is about prayer.

No, but prayer is a thing, is it not? And therefore, its an apt statement.

Do not think that a perfect God can teach an imperfect person what prayers are acceptable and what is not?

Fully? No. Not possible by the means that one is perfect with all understanding and the other is not.

I don't understand everything there is not know about viruses yet their is enough information available to me to keep myself healthy.

Much like you don't need to know how a car works to drive it. But a car doesn't drive you to eternal life of damnation and, as such, it's not an apt comparison IMO. But what is, if God is greater than anything? You gotta' use what you can I suspect. But a direct apples-to-apples comparison isn't possible.

This goes both ways.

Yup. Which is why I never try to say I KNOW, much unlike Christians you spout that all the time.

If it makes a person feel good about themselves to say, "No one knows what God wants", though they might feel good, could be deadly.

Maybe. Maybe not. And for the other individual, I don't much care either way personally. It's their life to live as they see fit so long as it doesn't hamper my life. Want to believe you hear a flying unicorn telling you to worship it? Go for it! Try to force me to live my life based on your flying unicorn, that's when we have a problem

Yet is that enought to ignore the rest of my question?

An illogical, non-apt comparison IMO? Yes it is. Why would I argue against something I think is illogical and not pertinent to the question at hand?

Not according to the Bible. Abraham was righteous.

Not what I said. I didn't say NO ONE was EVER righteous, I said everyone was, at some point, unrighteous UNLESS they're born righteous. Saying God won't listen to someone who is unrighteous is illogical simply because at some point EVERYONE is unrighteous.

Then I'm puzzled at your questions, expectations and comments on prayer.

You shouldn't be unless you expect everyone to understand exactly like you do. We aren't robots (last time I checked but maybe that's what God wants? who knows). Different people understand the same thing differently and sometimes their understanding changes are time progresses as they learn more and experience different things. It's not really that hard to understand I don't think.

I don't think I've seen you cite a single scripture.

A few times - maybe not in this back-n-forth. Why cite something that I don't agree with?

Or do you think that the Bible should be tossed out the window?

I tossed mine out a long time ago - hoping the paper it was written on would be recycled and put to better use
But to your question more directly, if you're talking about the bible, sure use it. But even the bible should have some sense of common sense about it that should be attainable from someone 'off the street' (aka your average person who hasn't studied it or even been directly exposed to it). And, when talking about it, you shouldn't expect one who doesn't believe in it (or whom hasn't been exposed to it) to cite anything from it.
After all, that's the Christian's calling: to bring people to Christ. To do that, you have to go to these people, not those that's only studied the bible and has been biased towards it for whatever reason.

[2timothy316]

I don't think I've seen you cite a single scripture.

A few times - maybe not in this back-n-forth. Why cite something that I don't agree with?

Noted. Thank you for the discussion.

[nobspeople]

I don't think I've seen you cite a single scripture.

A few times - maybe not in this back-n-forth. Why cite something that I don't agree with?

Noted. Thank you for the discussion.

Same to you. I hope you didn't take anything I said personally, as that was not the case.

[Miles]

.. But considering the millions upon millions of concerned Christians, Jews, and Muslims who use and have used prayer over and over again to affect the suffering of themselves, loved ones, strangers, and even situations, I think "billions upon billions" is a fair estimate. Don't agree?

Do I agree millions may have prayed to their god for relief from their personal suffering ? Yes I agree. However you notice I said ....

I believe "All sincere prayers that are not contrary to God's will and purpose , will be answered; And that the answer will be "Yes", "No" or .... "Later"" .

Those that pray that human suffering be alleviated are indeed praying according to his will and purpose: the answer to such prayers is "LATER"

You are aware, are you not that millions of people die while suffering. There was no "later" for them.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

You are aware, are you not that millions of people die while suffering. There was no "later" for them.

There is no problem, tragedy or suffering that God has permitted that he cannot repair.

REVELATION 21:4

And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

ISAIAH 65:17

Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind

[Miles]

You are aware, are you not that millions of people die while suffering. There was no "later" for them.

There is no problem, tragedy or suffering that God has permitted that he cannot repair.

So why doesn't he? Because he doesn't care that people suffer. 'Taint important enough to fix.

REVELATION 21:4

And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

ISAIAH 65:17

Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind

Isn't that nice. God can ignore all the suffering in the world because those who suffer wont remember it after they're dead. God gets off Scott Free from charges of neglect because he's made sure all the witnesses develop amnesia. Thing is, under god's reasoning there's no need to be loving and caring toward anyone because it will never be remembered. There's no need to kind and considerate to anyone because it will never be remembered. There's no need to be compassionate and empathetic because it will never be remembered. The crux of it all: not being remembered. If anyone could remember your love and compassion after they die, then it would be worth being loving and compassionate, but seeing as it won't be remembered, it's not worth the effort. <---God's rationalization for allowing suffering: No one will remember it.


,

[RIP]

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Peace on earth as prayed for? Are you serious?

The world always prays for peace on earth. It makes them look so caring and loving. But it is nothing but bull.

God will provide 'peace on earth'. And He will answer the prayer for 'peace on earth' from the Christian who knows God. Not from some feel good sentimentality displayed by non-believers.

If one wants peace, you first come to Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. As you then study the Scripture you see Jesus Christ will bring peace to this earth, but only after he destroys the worlds hold on the earth, which is under the rule of Satan. (Rev. 11:15)

In other words: God will bring peace on His terms. Not yours.

Rip

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

God will provide 'peace on earth'. And He will answer the prayer for 'peace on earth' from the Christian who knows God. Not from some feel good sentimentality displayed by non-believers.

Then one has to assume that no one was ever been a Christian who knows god and has ever prayed for peace. Now why do you think that is? Are there no such Christians, or are they blind to the fact that we don't have world peace, and that it just might help to pray for it? Here's a suggestion: Get the word out to all those Christians who know god that one of them, just one, has to pray for world peace if we're ever going to have it, because evidently god ain't moving a muscle until someone does.

If one wants peace, you first come to Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. As you then study the Scripture you see Jesus Christ will bring peace to this earth, but only after he destroys the worlds hold on the earth, which is under the rule of Satan. (Rev. 11:15)

In other words: God will bring peace on His terms. Not yours.

Just what terms are mine?

.

[RIP]

[Replying to Miles in post #68]

You can assume whatever you like. God has given in Scripture the only way for 'peace' for both the individual and the world as a whole.

Again, world peace will occur only when Jesus Christ returns and destroys the world system under Satan, and He sits on the throne of David in Jerusalem. And He will then rule in righteousness. God has outined in the Bible the things that must occur to bring about this rule of Jesus Christ over the earth. As I showed you in (Rev. 11:15).

These things are always based on God's schedule. Not man's. Not yours. When the Christian prays 'Come Lord Jesus', it is in anticipating that day. The world is always moving towards that day. And God is very involved in bringing these things about. Again, on His schedule. On His terms, as He has laid out in the Scripture.

So, two or more Christians getting together and praying for world peace, but it doesn't occur immediately, means nothing, other than they are praying amiss if they expected it to occur immediately.

Your terms don't matter no matter what they are.

Rip

[JehovahsWitness]

You are aware, are you not that millions of people die while suffering. There was no "later" for them.

There is no problem, tragedy or suffering that God has permitted that he cannot repair.

So why doesn't he?

Why does God allow suffering?

ANSWER God has allowed suffering to settle some essential issues raised in the Garden of Eden by Satan, a rebellious angel and our first parents Adam and Eve who he (Satan) influenced.

This had to be done for the long term stability of the universe and ultimately to avoid more suffering in the future. Like a parent that allows his child to undergo a very painful operation for its long term good, God's allowance of human suffering should not be taken for indifference but rather an essential stage in assuring the stability and happiness of all intelligent creatures in the universe.

Happily very soon God will intervene in human affairs, kill off the wicked and ensure that no one ever has to suffer ever again, repairing all the damage done during these milleniums under human rule and (as the bible promises) , making "all things new ".



FURTHER READING : Why does God allow evil and suffering?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... suffering/

VIDEO: https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#e ... 50_1_VIDEO



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