WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE IN JESUS?

[Eddie Ramos]

Throughout the vast religions of the world, most of them acknowledge Jesus Christ as having something to do with God. In other words, they all say that they believe in Jesus, but what exactly do they believe about Jesus? This is where the division comes in. Some believe that Jesus was just a good teacher, but not the son of God. Yet others believe that Jesus was the son of God, but not God himself. And still others believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. But all of these believe in Jesus. Does that mean that they are all saved? Not at all. When the Bible says that we must believe in Jesus, there is actually something very specific that God has in mind.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

The Word of God tells us that believing in Jesus is to believe that he is I AM, meaning , JEHOVAH in the flesh. And because God has written the Bible in the form of parables (to conceal truth), the casual reader who approaches the Bible as a plain textbook, is left extremely confused as to who one is versus the other. And so, they say they believe in Jesus, yet they actually don't truly believe the way the Bible requires it. They reject that Jesus is God in the flesh. And by doing so, they remain dead their sins as per John 8:24.

I will be defending the truth of the scriptures that teach that Jesus is JEHOVAH in the flesh, and that true belief in Jesus, means to believe that he is indeed JEHOVAH in the flesh. If anyone objects this position, I will respond with the Bible to whatever scriptures you provide.

What do you think it means, according to the Bible, to believe in Jesus?

[1213]

[Eddie Ramos]

[1213]

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, but I wanted to make sure that what I had studied before concerning the phrase "I AM" is still correct. And the "I AM" argument is actually a very good argument if we take the time to examine the original biblical text against the translated text. Let's start with the verse in question...

No problem, I can wait. The problem is that if we would agree that "I am" means in the scripture "God", it would make all of the scriptures you quoted very different and also irrational. For example:

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:24 (KJV 1900)

Would be:

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that God he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:24 (KJV 1900)

The "I am" argument is therefore not reasonable and not good.

[Eddie Ramos]

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, but I wanted to make sure that what I had studied before concerning the phrase "I AM" is still correct. And the "I AM" argument is actually a very good argument if we take the time to examine the original biblical text against the translated text. Let's start with the verse in question...

No problem, I can wait. The problem is that if we would agree that "I am" means in the scripture "God", it would make all of the scriptures you quoted very different and also irrational. For example:

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:24 (KJV 1900)

Would be:

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that God he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:24 (KJV 1900)

The "I am" argument is therefore not reasonable and not good.

Well, when we read it in the Old Testament, it also doesn't make logical sense to us because it doesn't make grammatical sense. Yet, nonetheless, the Bible wasn't written to make sense to us, it was written for us to understand it by using the scriptures alone and not our logic.

Exodus 3:13-14 (KJV) 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.


Notice that when Moses asks for God's name, that God doesn't tell them his actual name of JEHOVAH yet, instead he gives Moses one of his many names which describes something about himself, and yet it makes little sense to us as we read it because no one (generally) speaks like that. We would rationalize within ourselves and ask, "I AM....what"? Almost as if God's sentence was incomplete, but it wasn't. He spoke it exactly the way he intended it to.

Likewise when Jesus uses the same odd language to describe himself, we suddenly have a problem with it, because we see that he is doing the same thing God has done. But that again was on purpose to teach us that very truth, that JEHOVAH is Jesus in the flesh. So, we're not to reword John 8:24, but simply understand why Jesus is using the same odd language as JEHOVAH.

John 8:24 (KJV) 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

The Pharisees understood exactly what Jesua was saying, which is why they tried to stone him after he made the same statement again.

John 8:58-59 (KJV) 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

[wannabe]

The best way to find out "what does it mean to believe in Jesus ?", is to get to know him. Here's how:
If you want to find Jesus - simply look.
He's not denying his presence - you are.
How does science find its evidence for the sake of conclusion?
They dig, explore examine, discover.
So apparently the opposing side to science = Jesus.
So , dig, explore, examine, discover - look for Jesus, and before you find him he will find you (that is if it is Jesus you are actually looking for and not some thing of your own expectation.)
This works, otherwise your an agnostic.

If its proof you want, ask Jesus for it, in whatever way you feel respectfully addresses the subject of his validity, truth, and reality.
You will find Jesus is giving.
As in all relationships you have to be a little patient with each other.
Try this:
"Jesus, ... (fill in the blanks) ... amen. (respect)
Done.

[Eddie Ramos]

The best way to find out "what does it mean to believe in Jesus ?", is to get to know him. Here's how:
If you want to find Jesus - simply look.
He's not denying his presence - you are.
How does science find its evidence for the sake of conclusion?
They dig, explore examine, discover.
So apparently the opposing side to science = Jesus.
So , dig, explore, examine, discover - look for Jesus, and before you find him he will find you (that is if it is Jesus you are actually looking for and not some thing of your own expectation.)
This works, otherwise your an agnostic.

If its proof you want, ask Jesus for it, in whatever way you feel respectfully addresses the subject of his validity, truth, and reality.
You will find Jesus is giving.
As in all relationships you have to be a little patient with each other.
Try this:
"Jesus, ... (fill in the blanks) ... amen. (respect)
Done.

Unfortunately, mankind has developed their own ways of how they decide to find God, how they decide to approach him and how they decide to worship him and still be called by the name of Christ.

Isaiah 4:1 (KJV)
?1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel:
only let us be called by thy name,
to take away our reproach.

The man here represents Christ Jesus. The 7 women represent all those who claim to be the bride of Christ but are not. The bread is the gospel, and those who think they are saved but are not, have developed their own gospel to provide for themselves their own (apparel) covering of righteousness. All because they despise the truth of God's word, yet they still want to be called by the name of Christ to take away their sins. Or so they think.

And so, if any method we develop that isn't supported by the scriptures as a whole, then those methods are worthless because they are lies.

The Bible teaches us that God/Jesus is a God who hides himself.

Isaiah 45:15 (KJV)
15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself,
O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Jesus taught us the same truth.

John 10:24-28 (KJV) 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Matthew 13:10-11 (KJV) 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Matthew 13:13 (KJV) 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And the only way to find Jesus is to seek him with a whole heart.

Deuteronomy 4:29 (KJV) 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Psalms 119:2 (KJV)
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies,
and that seek him with the whole heart.

Finding God requires a whole heart. This is in contrast to the stony and wicked heart we have before salvation. But once God saved his elect, he gave them a whole heart and a new soul. This wonderful act on behalf of God upon his elect, is what has allowed his sheep to find their shepherd.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

Please explain how Jesus could be the Father, Jehovah. It is crystal clear in the Scriptures that Jesus and Jehovah are two separate individuals. (See the threads "Jesus is not God" and "Jesus is not YHWH" for discussion of this.) It undoubtedly makes Jesus sad to be equated with his Father whom he loves and obeys, and looks up to. He does not obey himself. He obeys Jehovah, YHWH.

To believe in Jesus it simply means that a person accepts him as their Savior and then they follow his teachings and his example.

John 3:16
I Peter 2:21
I Timothy 4:10
I Corinthians 1:3,9

[onewithhim]

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

Please explain how Jesus could be the Father, Jehovah. It is crystal clear in the Scriptures that Jesus and Jehovah are two separate individuals. (See the threads "Jesus is not God" and "Jesus is not YHWH" for discussion of this.) It undoubtedly makes Jesus sad to be equated with his Father whom he loves and obeys, and looks up to. He does not obey himself. He obeys Jehovah, YHWH.

To believe in Jesus it simply means that a person accepts him as their Savior and then they follow his teachings and his example.

John 3:16
I Peter 2:21
I Timothy 4:10
I Corinthians 1:3,9

Sure thing. But nothing in the scriptures is crystal clear and everything requires an interpretation by the scriptures themselves. But since you approach the Bible with that concept in mind, then I would like it if you could provide even one verse that teaches the "crystal clearness" of the doctrine of God and I will show you the exact opposite from the scriptures. The sad fact is that many approach the scriptures on their own terms and automatically assume that the scriptures were written to be logically and clearly understood, but the exact opposite is true. The Bible (The Word of God) was written in parables, whether historical parables or spoken. This is God's way of concealing spiritual truth from the spiritually blind.

Proverbs 1:6 (KJV)
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation;
the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

Matthew 13:34 (KJV) 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Revelation 19:13 (KJV) 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his (Jesus') name is called The Word of God.

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV)
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing:
but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Both words translated as "thing" and "matter" are the exact same Hebrew words for "WORD".

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV)
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a word:
but the honour of kings is to search out a word.

Nothing in the scriptures is crystal clear as many incorrectly assume. With this in mind, we can approach the scriptures more properly and seek for truth, leaving our logic out of the equation, especially when a finite creature (mankind) with a pea sized brain is trying to understand an infinite God.

As we look into the scriptures, we discover that the only thing we can know about God is that which he has decided to reveal to us in His Word. And because this is the inspired Word of God , we must trust whatever conclusion it leads us to, as long as the whole of the scriptures agree, even if we can't fully comprehend it.

And when everything is taken into consideration, we discover that God is one God in 3 deities.

[i]1 John 5:7-8 (KJV) 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.[/i]

This then helps us understand why God would use the word "Elohym" to describe himself and speak as if though he was speaking to someone else.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV) 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So, we don't need to twist or turn the text in order to have agreement up to this point. So, as we read that Elohym created mankind (Adam) after his own image and likeness, we realize that God also tells us that he is an invisible spirit. Then whose image and likeness were we made after? Christ of course, who is the image of the invisible God. That would mean that Christ had to be present from the very beginning, and he was.

Revelation 3:14 (KJV) 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Colossians 1:15 (KJV) 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

But Christ wasn't only the firstborn of every creature, he existed even before the world began, meaning eternity past.

[i]2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV) 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (through) Christ Jesus before the world began[/i],

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This means that Christ died to make payment for sins before he even created the world. And he did in fact create the world.

John 1:1-3 (KJV)
?1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This means that Christ created man in his own image and likeness. Also, after man sinned they became like Elohym, knowing (having experienced) good and now evil. But look at how God states this.

Genesis 3:22 (KJV) 22 And the JEHOVAH God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Now ,which one of the Godhead did mankind become like? Like the one who became sin who knew no sin. Like Christ, who became sin and was slain from the foundation of the world.

So, everything I have explained so far are to show you that no matter what aspect of the scriptures we look at, that there will be continued agreement within the Bible as a whole. But doesn't the scriptures have verses that indicate that Christ is under JEHOVAH? I mean, I just posted a scripture that states that he was the beginning of the creation of God. And, this is where we have to be objective and not determine that these verses automatically negate all other verses that declare that Jesus is JEHOVAH, like this one.

Jeremiah 23:6 (KJV) 6 In his (Christ's) days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his (Christ's) name whereby he (Christ) shall be called, JEHOVAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

And verses can be presented that seem to say both things about Christ, that he is eternal God and that he is the servant of God. And it's only when we are willing to place all the pieces on the table to complete the whole puzzle, that we can the whole picture.

And that's that JEHOVAH is one God in 3 deities, the Father, the son (word) and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one God. And JEHOVAH humbled himself in the person of Christ and became as a servant to God (himself). This is why we read of passages that speak of Christ as a lower form. But we know that this child that was born, is indeed the everlasting Father.

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

As we know, in the scriptures, names are given to teach us more about who God is. And this child is indeed called the everlasting Father. Make logical sense yet? I didn't expect it to. Yet these are all truths we have to deal with.

Lastly, you Saud that to believe in Jesus means to accept him as saviour, but can you provide a scripture that teaches that, because the ones you provided, don't. But here us what the scriptures do declare, that Christ's death made us acceptable to God.

Ephesians 1:5-6 (KJV) 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.