A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

[POI]

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1) Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12

3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.

*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[JehovahsWitness]

If such a 'thou shall not' command was in front of 'slavery' anywhere in the Bible, then guess what? This topic would not exist.

God does not call an absolute prohibition on slavery because slavery is not always wrong.

You missed my point entirely. Let me reiterate...

You can also justify that lying and theft are not "ALWAYS WRONG" ...

Not biblically you can't , no.

... "thou shall not" command exists for those two topics - somewhere within the pages of the Bible.

Yes, that is correct because biblically theft and lying are ALWAYS wrong. That is not the case for slavery, it is not considered always wrong, thus there is no blanket, universal prohibition. Instead there are laws, controls, regulatory rules, guidelines, codes of conduct... etc






JW



ETHICS


Is all slavery not wrong because most people hold that it is?
viewtopic.php?p=1079923#p1079923

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY , SLAVE BEATING and ...ABOLITION

[POI]

If such a 'thou shall not' command was in front of 'slavery' anywhere in the Bible, then guess what? This topic would not exist.

God does not call an absolute prohibition on slavery because slavery is not always wrong.

You missed my point entirely. Let me reiterate...

You can also justify that lying and theft are not "ALWAYS WRONG" ...

Not biblically you can't , no.

... "thou shall not" command exists for those two topics - somewhere within the pages of the Bible.

Yes, that is correct because biblically theft and lying are ALWAYS wrong.

You either continue to miss my point, or are deliberately being deceptive?

Exodus 20:15:

15 “You shall not steal.

*************************

Verse 15 is quite direct. "Don't do it." There exists no elaboration here.

If one of God's commands had this anywhere about 'slavery', like it does about 'stealing' --- Game over. This topic would never have come up.

[JehovahsWitness]

If one of God's commands had this anywhere about 'slavery', like it does about 'stealing' --- Game over. This topic would never have come up.

True. .... So ? So what!?

Apart from pointing out that life would have been different in an alternative universe, I'm having trouble seeing what your point is.

[POI]

If one of God's commands had this anywhere about 'slavery', like it does about 'stealing' --- Game over. This topic would never have come up.

True. .... So ? So what!?

* facepalm *

[POI]

I'm having trouble seeing what your point is.

I'm sorry, but I cannot help you any further here... You can lead a horse to water....

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm having trouble seeing what your point is.

I'm sorry, but I cannot help you any further here... You can lead a horse to water....

Fair enough. I sense your frustration but this is inevitable if you do not express yourself clearly. If your point is merely that all ambiguity would arguably have been removed if there were a blanket prohibition on slavery, that may well be true but evidently the God of the bible did not feel that would have been the right thing to do.

If your point lies elsewhere, then there is where, I fear, it will have to rest.




JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Post #263 --> "Well, you see, slavery (in the Bible) was a special kind of slavery...."

That is correct. It was in many ways unique and ahead of its time.

This is yet another example of the problem about religion; it makes good, decent, people act like bad.

It can, but then any ideology can do that. Good religion should raise people up to be the best they can be. The Mosaic law was the basis imho of "good religion".





JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LOVE & SLAVERY, CHATTEL SLAVERY and .... ABOLITION

[TRANSPONDER]

If such a 'thou shall not' command was in front of 'slavery' anywhere in the Bible, then guess what? This topic would not exist.

God does not call an absolute prohibition on slavery because slavery is not always wrong.

You missed my point entirely. Let me reiterate...

You can also justify that lying and theft are not "ALWAYS WRONG" ...

Not biblically you can't , no.

... "thou shall not" command exists for those two topics - somewhere within the pages of the Bible.

Yes, that is correct because biblically theft and lying are ALWAYS wrong. That is not the case for slavery, it is not considered always wrong, thus there is no blanket, universal prohibition. Instead there are laws, controls, regulatory rules, guidelines, codes of conduct... etc






JW

But I should say that the prohibitions against stealing,. lying or killing can also be made ok, if they are a special kind. Like if God gives particular conditions, like he does for slavery of Hebrews and Foreigners. Thus there is no good reason why slavery could not have been prohibited other than YHWH thought it was ok..in which case we are looking at the values of men of the time, not of a god, unless it doesn't know everything.

[TRANSPONDER]

Post #263 --> "Well, you see, slavery (in the Bible) was a special kind of slavery...."

That is correct. It was in many ways unique and ahead of its time.

This is yet another example of the problem about religion; it makes good, decent, people act like bad.

It can, but then any ideology can do that. Good religion should raise people up to be the best they can be. The Mosaic law was the basis imho of "good religion".





JW

Yes, but all that is, is the 'Best' ideas of the men of the time given a religious gloss to make it stick. Today, we can see that it is just not good enough and the omission of a prohibition against slavery in the Commandments, Laws, rules or anywhere in the Bible shows that indeed this was the best they could do at the time but is not the best that could be done later on. That is why slavery makes the Bible the work of men, not of God.

The efforts I saw here to make treating people like yourself, or using 'Love' as a blanket to imply that God was against slavery simply makes it worse that He (seeing how bad it would look) did not come out in saying it fair and square in commandments, rules and Jesus' teachings, not to mention Paul. Just once would do. And it's the same with medicine, science treatment of women...everything. It all shows the Bible to be the best efforts of men of the time, but it is not the word of God.

[JehovahsWitness]

God does not call an absolute prohibition on slavery because slavery is not always wrong.

...

You can also justify that lying and theft are not "ALWAYS WRONG" ...

Not biblically you can't , no.

But I should say that the prohibitions against stealing,. lying ... can also be made ok, ...

You may well say that ... but, are you God?

The point is, the question has been asked, why does the bible not offer a blanket condemnation of SLAVERY when it does for other things such as adultery, stealing or lying. The answer is simple : biblically blanket condemnations are reserved for the things that God (and I did say GOD not Joe Bloggs ... ) God considers always wrong.