Christianity...

mcbr4481 · Post by **mcbr4481** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:03 am

I always see arguments on here for what is christianity and what is not, to me theres only a couple of major things that must be agreed upon.....

1. The trinity.. I think it is pretty neccisary that a christian understands the father, the son and the holy spirit. This includes the divinity of Jesus..

2. Salvation is by Grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ.

3. The Bible is the inspired unfalable word of God.

I believe that the second one is the main one that one must understand to be a christian. if you have any thoughts on this please reply...

Vanguard · Post by **Vanguard** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:42 am

mcbr4481 wrote:In response to one earlier, James is not implying that works are neccisary for salvation. He is saying that if you have faith you will have works. It is clear throughout the new testiment that your salvation is 100 percent reliant upon faith in Jesus Christ. However James is point out to many false converts who think there saved, that if they don't have the works they probably dont have the faith. Its not just james that says this, Matthew 7 says "You will know them by their fruit" If someone has faith that is realy and has really been "born again" they will have works and will have fruit, but works are not part of salvation they are a reflextion of your faith..

Hope that clears that up...

mcbr4481 - That was a nice way to put it. I am one of those pesky Christians who would claim without "fruit" there is no salvation. Of course, the devil is in the details (i.e., who determines what that fruit should look like?).

Because mankind is ill-equipped to identify acceptable fruits does not mean therefore that actions are not important. This job will be left to the Godhead to determine this. In the meantime, it is our responsibility to strive toward what we consider our own capacity and to encourage others to do the same.

Claim you are saved all you want (it doesn't really matter to me). If you are not seeking out the truth of your own capacity your claim to salvation IMO falls on deaf ears.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:07 am

I still prefer faithfulness as faith becomes a proposition and something you are doing to bring about your salvation. Grace means favoritism and
any faith would also be a gift.

If God does the saving then faith or works has nothing to do with it and is still something you do.
There seems to be some inconstancy here.

It reminds me of something from the 12 step program I always thought was rather silly.
Your powerless but you are suppose to give yourself over to a higher power.
If your powerless then how do you give yourself over?
If you are saved by faith how is it a gift of God and something you don't earn or merit because of faith?
When a person says they are saved by faith not works it just sounds lazy.
What is faith but believing with out reason(logos) or evidence?
It is irrational by definition yet this is claimed to save you.
Or you could say Jesus died for your sins.
But it is also asked that you believe this.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:55 am

mcbr4481 wrote:In response to one earlier, James is not implying that works are neccisary for salvation. He is saying that if you have faith you will have works. It is clear throughout the new testiment that your salvation is 100 percent reliant upon faith in Jesus Christ. However James is point out to many false converts who think there saved, that if they don't have the works they probably dont have the faith. Its not just james that says this, Matthew 7 says "You will know them by their fruit" If someone has faith that is realy and has really been "born again" they will have works and will have fruit, but works are not part of salvation they are a reflextion of your faith..

Hope that clears that up...

When I read James, that is not how I interepret the words James writes. There seems to be a big disagreement between the James faction and the Pauline faction.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:39 am

goat wrote:When I read James, that is not how I interepret the words James writes. There seems to be a big disagreement between the James faction and the Pauline faction.

Jesus seems to weigh in with his brother, James.

Matthew 25:32-46 wrote:All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:53 am

McCulloch wrote:
goat wrote:When I read James, that is not how I interepret the words James writes. There seems to be a big disagreement between the James faction and the Pauline faction.
Jesus seems to weigh in with his brother, James.
Matthew 25:32-46 wrote:All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

James, and that passage in Matthew seems to be much closer to Judaism than the Pauline theology. You can see the process of the shift starting with Paul, and that shift being developed, and defined over the years.

mcbr4481 · Post by **mcbr4481** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:10 pm

I mean no offense by this of course but some of you will take it thatway but it needs to be said... People who refuseto understand the bible as a whole have a difficult time in understanding certain things about it.. Jams is not Saying you need works for salvation... Paul and James are not saying different things... Paul writes about the grace of God and how great it is. James compliments it by saying don't be satisfied that you have this faith, because your faith without works is dead! Hes preaching a message where he believes you need to live your faith and be a good example. But no where does he say Works areneccisary for salvation. It is clear the new testiment teaches that Salvation is by faith in the blood shed of Jesus Christ. Works are a reflection of that salvation not a cause!

For by grace you have been saved through faith, notof works it is the gift of God lest anyone should boast - Eph 2:8-9

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:21 pm

mcbr4481 wrote:I mean no offense by this of course but some of you will take it thatway but it needs to be said... People who refuseto understand the bible as a whole have a difficult time in understanding certain things about it.. Jams is not Saying you need works for salvation... Paul and James are not saying different things... Paul writes about the grace of God and how great it is. James compliments it by saying don't be satisfied that you have this faith, because your faith without works is dead! Hes preaching a message where he believes you need to live your faith and be a good example. But no where does he say Works areneccisary for salvation. It is clear the new testiment teaches that Salvation is by faith in the blood shed of Jesus Christ. Works are a reflection of that salvation not a cause!

For by grace you have been saved through faith, notof works it is the gift of God lest anyone should boast - Eph 2:8-9

It seems to me that the different factions had people write different gospels, and often they disagreed with each other on matters of faith. this leads to the contridctions that so many CHrisitans deny are there. It also appears to me that the concept of 'salvation' evolved from a theological point of view through the various gospels. It is , in my opinion, foolish to think as the New testament as one cohestive unit. It was written by a number of people whose theological concepts are often at odd with each other.

mcbr4481 · Post by **mcbr4481** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:24 pm

actually it was written by God, so it is compltly unified. There is no descrepancy amoung the gospel writters they are preached repentance and faith!

This is me ](*,) please think about this logicaly... you have to read the new testiment as a whole not pick and choose what you want

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:42 pm

mcbr4481 wrote:actually it was written by God, so it is compltly unified. There is no descrepancy amoung the gospel writters they are preached repentance and faith!

This is me ](*,) please think about this logicaly... you have to read the new testiment as a whole not pick and choose what you want

I did. I see no evidence the New testamament was written by God. I see lots of 'discrepencies' between the various gospels. As I said, I see how the theology changed through the various writings of the Gospels. I see disagreements between the various writers, and the elaboration from one gospel over the next.

Easyrider · Post by **Easyrider** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:10 pm

You haven't fared too well concerning your alleged NT "discrepancies," Goat. Want to try another one you haven't cited before (one that hasn't previously been debated)?