The 144,000 in JW theology

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:02 pm

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:07 pm

Matt. 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.

Luke 22:28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

It is obvious that the earth will remain inhabited after the great tribulation. The belief that all good people will live to heaven and be kings is nothing more than an erroneous belief and wishful thinking, which does not come out of the Bible. It is obvious that Jehovah's servants of old, to cite another good example, are not going to be kings alongside Jesus in heaven, but are to be resurrected to live on earth turned into a paradise.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:10 pm

DOES EPHESIANS 4:4 NEGATE THE EXISTENCE OF CHRISTIANS WITH AN EARTHLY HOPE?

No, Paul's words are actually addressed to Anointed Christians with a heavenly calling. All anointed "born again" Christians are called to become part of the "body of Christ" and share the same hope.

EPHESIANS 4:4

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

The principle of unity of course would apply to the "other sheep" when they would later join Gods earthly organisation, but the words at EPHESIANS 4:4 actually apply to anointed Christians who are the "congregation or God" Those that are not part of "the body of Christ" (the bride class) have a different hope.

NOTE : "Congregation", "church" and "religion" are often used colloquially to refer to in general terms to God's people or local groups thereof. Not to be confused with the biblical usage which more often than not refers to the body of Christ or the bride class (see above)

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tam · Post by **tam** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:47 pm

Peace to you,

Eloi wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:07 pm Matt. 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.

Luke 22:28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Isn't the Kingdom established upon the earth, Eloi?

Those who reign with Christ reign upon the earth. They have access to the spiritual realm as well, like the angels, and so can come before God (through His Son). But the reign is upon the earth.

The WTS inserts 'over' the earth (at Rev 5) to try and suggest that the Bride is in heaven only, but that is not correct. (besides which, someone who is reigning over the earth can still be on the earth. Like a shepherd keeps watch over his sheep, that doesn't mean that he is somewhere up in heaven keeping watch over them.) The Bride is not locked into one place or the other, anymore than angels are locked, or Christ is locked. We are called to be free.

On top of that though there is this:

The Bride (the Church, the Body of Christ), also known as the New Jerusalem, comes down OUT OF heaven.

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. Rev 21:2

The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name. Rev 3:12

She comes down out of heaven and reigns upon the earth.

(Just as an fyi: The ancients were looking forward to that city as well: All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. Hebrews 11:13-16)

You like the following verse to suggest that people will be on the earth, right?

They will neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the sea is full of water.

I don't disagree, but is not God's Holy Mountain, Mount Zion?

Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. Hebrews 12:22

It is obvious that the earth will remain inhabited after the great tribulation.

Indeed.

The belief that all good people will live to heaven and be kings is nothing more than an erroneous belief and wishful thinking, which does not come out of the Bible.

Nor is that my belief.

The WTS has made eating and drinking about this 'two hope doctrine' and the 'anointed', as if some Christians are the brothers of Christ and others are not; as if some Christians are the Church and others are not; as if some Christians are anointed and others are not; as if some Christians are part of the new covenant and others are not. That is just not true. And though you are bringing up Israel and the fact that they had a priesthood... as my dear Lord just reminded me... the covenant was with the entire nation of Israel.

Not just some of Israel. ALL of Israel.

Same with the new covenant and Christians (both the natural branches of Israel and the grafted in ones).

May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:51 pm

No, Tam. The ones who live on earth will have bodies of flesh, and the ones who will be kings on heaven will be spirits, because they will live in another ambient.

1 John 3:1 See what sort of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are. That is why the world does not know us, because it has not come to know him. 2 Beloved ones, we are now children of God, but it has not yet been made manifest what we will be. We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure.

And NO; in Israel not everyone could be a priest ... or BTW a king. However, some tried to be what they should not try and to do what they were not supposed to do, and it ended in disaster for them.

tam · Post by **tam** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:05 pm

Peace again to you,

Eloi wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:51 pm No, Tam. The ones who live on earth will have bodies of flesh, and the ones who will be kings on heaven will be spirits, because they will live in another ambient.

1 John 3:1 See what sort of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are. That is why the world does not know us, because it has not come to know him. 2 Beloved ones, we are now children of God, but it has not yet been made manifest what we will be. We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure.

And Christ, after His resurrection, could be both. Spirit and flesh; matter and energy. He could appear and disappear, He could eat food, He could be seen and touched, and He could ascend into heaven.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:08 pm

[Replying to tam in post #2] Like he did in the past, yes. Like angels did in the past, yes.

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:13 pm

Eloi wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:51 pm (...) And NO; in Israel not everyone could be a priest ... or BTW a king. However, some tried to be what they should not try and to do what they were not supposed to do, and it ended in disaster for them.

1 Chron. 26:16 However, as soon as he was strong, his heart became haughty to his own ruin, and he acted unfaithfully against Jehovah his God by entering the temple of Jehovah to burn incense on the altar of incense. 17 Immediately Az·a·riʹah the priest and 80 other courageous priests of Jehovah went in after him. 18 They confronted King Uz·ziʹah and said to him: “It is not proper for you, Uz·ziʹah, to burn incense to Jehovah! It is only the priests who should burn incense, for they are the descendants of Aaron, those who have been sanctified. Go out from the sanctuary, for you have acted unfaithfully and you will receive no glory from Jehovah God for this.”
19 But Uz·ziʹah, who had a censer in his hand to burn incense, became enraged; and during his rage against the priests, leprosy broke out on his forehead in the presence of the priests in the house of Jehovah next to the altar of incense. 20 When Az·a·riʹah the chief priest and all the priests turned toward him, they saw that he had been stricken with leprosy in his forehead! So they rushed him out of there, and he himself hurried out, because Jehovah had struck him.

Num. 16:1 And Koʹrah the son of Izʹhar, the son of Koʹhath, the son of Leʹvi, proceeded to get up, together with Daʹthan and A·biʹram the sons of E·liʹab, and On the son of Peʹleth, the sons of Reuʹben. 2 And they proceeded to rise up before Moses, they and two hundred and fifty men of the sons of Israel, chieftains of the assembly, summoned ones of the meeting, men of fame. 3 So they congregated themselves against Moses and Aaron and said to them: “That is enough of YOU, because the whole assembly are all of them holy and Jehovah is in their midst. Why, then, should YOU lift yourselves up above the congregation of Jehovah?”
4 When Moses got to hear it he at once fell upon his face. 5 Then he spoke to Koʹrah and to his entire assembly, saying: “In the morning Jehovah will make known who belongs to him and who is holy and who must come near to him, and whoever he may choose will come near to him. 6 Do this: Take fire holders for yourselves, Koʹrah and his entire assembly, 7 and put fire in them and place incense upon them before Jehovah tomorrow, and it must occur that the man whom Jehovah will choose, he is the holy one. That is enough of YOU, YOU sons of Leʹvi!”
8 And Moses went on to say to Koʹrah: “Listen, please, YOU sons of Leʹvi. 9 Is it such a little thing for YOU men that the God of Israel has separated YOU men from the assembly of Israel to present YOU to himself to carry on the service of Jehovah’s tabernacle and to stand before the assembly to minister to them, 10 and that he should bring you and all your brothers the sons of Leʹvi with you near? So must YOU men also try to secure the priesthood? 11 For that reason you and all your assembly who are gathering together are against Jehovah. As for Aaron, what is he that YOU men should murmur against him?” (...)

tam · Post by **tam** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:40 pm

Peace to you,

[Replying to Eloi in post #415]

And NO; in Israel not everyone could be a priest ... or BTW a king.

No one said otherwise. This is what I wrote:

The WTS has made eating and drinking about this 'two hope doctrine' and the 'anointed', as if some Christians are the brothers of Christ and others are not; as if some Christians are the Church and others are not; as if some Christians are anointed and others are not; as if some Christians are part of the new covenant and others are not. That is just not true. And though you are bringing up Israel and the fact that they had a priesthood... as my dear Lord just reminded me... the covenant was with the entire nation of Israel.

Not just some of Israel. ALL of Israel.

Same with the new covenant and Christians (both the natural branches of Israel and the grafted in ones).

However, some tried to be what they should not try and to do what they were not supposed to do, and it ended in disaster for them.

Ahh, and there is the fear that the WTS uses against people. Making people AFRAID to eat or drink the body and blood of Christ, because disaster could befall them.

AS IF.

If that were true - if something was so dangerous like that - Christ would have warned us Himself.

Instead, as stated in previous posts, He said that ANYONE may eat. That WHOEVER eats His flesh and drinks His blood remains in Him and He in them, and that He will raise that one up on the last day. That UNLESS one eats His flesh and drinks His blood, one has no life in them.

The WTS turns around and teaches people NOT to eat or drink, even sends those people out into the world to teach others not to eat or drink, to make people who might want to eat and to drink, afraid of doing something that Christ said ANYONE can do, afraid to say YES to Christ when He says, here is my body, take it and eat; here is my blood, poured out for you, take it and drink.

May anyone who wishes and who seeks, be given ears to hear so as to hear the truth of this matter from the One who is the Truth, my dear Lord Jaheshua, the Chosen and Holy One of His Father, JAH (the MOST Holy One).

Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:48 pm

Not even Jesus chose himself as High Priest.

Heb. 5:4 A man does not take this honor of his own accord, but he receives it only when he is called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” 6 As he also says in another place, “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.”

Interestingly, those who believe that they can name themselves as part of the 144,000, that is, as king and priest, assume that not only him, but anyone from any other religion or beliefs who claims to be "Christian" can also assume that position. Isn't that an act of conceit and arrogance like that of Korah, Dathan, Abiram, and King Uzziah?

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