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BE that as it may, how does that tell us whether he had a genuine human experience, given the points in the OP showing us otherwise.According to the actual story, “Yes - he was a mortal human person. Yes, - he is now an immortal human person.”
Well, you need to study the Bible with a Jehovah's Witness to know all details that the Bible teaches. Anyway, where did you originally know Jesus from if not that the Bible talked about him in the first place? It is free of charge while theologians will charge an eye.William wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:35 pmI conclude then, that until such evidence presents itself, it is an unsupported claim about "what will happen one day" and has no direct bearing on the subject of the OP re 'related argument'Eloi wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:23 pmYou can "conclude" for yourself whatever fits you. Other thing is if that is true. Anyway, Jesus was NOT an imperfect man like we are, but all human beings were supposed to be like the human Jesus, like the pre-fall Adam. That will happen in the paradise when humans will reach perfection again.
William wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:53 pmSo in relation to point #3 in the OP;myth-one.com wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:43 pmI am referring to prayer, not any "prior knowledge".William wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:17 pmTheir claims are all different to Jesus's claim, as none of those billions I have encountered, claim to have gained their knowledge prior to becoming Human.
Jesus did not have power of His own to heal people, raise people from the dead, and perform other miracles. We can know this because Jesus prayed! If He was a God during His thirty-three years on the earth, He could have performed such feats directly with His own godly powers. Since He was a man this was not the case. He had to pray to God His Father to perform acts beyond His human capabilities.
Billions of religionists of various religions gain inspiration from prayer on a daily basis.
He was able to do things which appeared to be magic, but were actually miracles, because they were not the product of human invention [underhanded trickery] but rather the product of some type of channeling. [overhanded [divine] trickery]
You are saying that he wasn't born with those abilities but was gifted them after the fact, by asking for them and that even then they were not his powers but he was acting as a channel and the miracles were performed by the one who was asked [through prayer]?
This implies that anyone can be used as a conduit for said abilities by asking [through prayer], and that the argument is really that those of us who do not channel such power either by not asking or by being rejected, are not actually having a genuine Human Experience.
Is that what you are arguing?
Certainly He knew what His mission was.
Given the massive amount of information available on the life and times of Jesus Christ, He certainly lived and died as a human.W wrote:Given the information available, how can anyone claim that Jesus was ever really a human being, other than the form he occupied appeared to those who saw it, to be human?
I dispute the points in the OP. I’ve stated my position on scripture presenting Jesus as a unique, but nevertheless “genuine,” human person - a minority view (considered “heretical” by the majority) in Christianity.
how does that tell us whether he had a genuine human experience, given the points in the OP showing us otherwise.
In what way are you disputing those points.I dispute the points in the OP.
The argument is that one can easily be distracted by the costume and make assumptions which clearly contradict biblical Jesus' own telling of who he is.I’ve stated my position on scripture presenting Jesus as a unique, but nevertheless “genuine,” human person - a minority view (considered “heretical” by the majority) in Christianity.
A unique / genuine human person clearly has genuine human experiences.
Yes - that is the story which is presented, and thus all we have to go by.Considered from the perspective of the majority view in Christianity, your question isn’t about a unique / genuine human person. Your question from that perspective is about a divine person who, that theology teaches, assumed impersonal human nature.
The points of the OP [which you dispute] tell it as it is.How can a human person have a genuine human experience? How can such a person not? That’s where I am.
Well the majority rule, so I investigate their claims accordingly.How can a divine person who assumed an impersonal human nature have a genuine human experience? That’s what you’re trying to get at. That’s where the majority, but not all in Christianity, are.
The biblical Jesus isn’t a divine person; he is a human person.William wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:32 pm [Replying to Mattathias in post #104]
how does that tell us whether he had a genuine human experience, given the points in the OP showing us otherwise.In what way are you disputing those points.I dispute the points in the OP.
The argument is that one can easily be distracted by the costume and make assumptions which clearly contradict biblical Jesus' own telling of who he is.I’ve stated my position on scripture presenting Jesus as a unique, but nevertheless “genuine,” human person - a minority view (considered “heretical” by the majority) in Christianity.
A unique / genuine human person clearly has genuine human experiences.
Not 'what he was at the time' but WHO he was and had always been.
Yes - that is the story which is presented, and thus all we have to go by.Considered from the perspective of the majority view in Christianity, your question isn’t about a unique / genuine human person. Your question from that perspective is about a divine person who, that theology teaches, assumed impersonal human nature.
The points of the OP [which you dispute] tell it as it is.How can a human person have a genuine human experience? How can such a person not? That’s where I am.
How can a Divine Being who incarnates into a Human form and retains his sense and nature of divinity, even consider themselves, that they had a genuine Human Experience?
What Jesus had was a divine experience within the form of a Human container, itself contained upon a Global platform, itself contained in a Spiral Disk platform, itself contained in...we are not sure as nobody currently knows...it is the mystery and clearly Jesus was a Mystic - something else which Christians tend to look past, probably because it appears too much like "Paganism" to their Human senses...and Jesus was no "Pagan"!
Well the majority rule, so I investigate their claims accordingly.How can a divine person who assumed an impersonal human nature have a genuine human experience? That’s what you’re trying to get at. That’s where the majority, but not all in Christianity, are.
You are saying exactly the opposite of what I am telling you ... and I DO KNOW what the Bible teaches. The human Jesus was a small cell before growing as a child inside his mother. He didn't went out of there thinking how unconfortable and small room was there compared to where he was, because he was just a new person, a human one and he did not recuperate the heavenly memories until he was anointed with the spirit of God at his baptism. When he was born his mind had a reset, and some years later a memory recovery.William wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:31 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #94]
As I actually said, He [Spirit] occupied a human form - not that he 'human' occupied a human carcass. A spirit occupying a human form can experience being born through the portal provided, which does not mean that his life as a Human was a genuine Human experience.He did not occupy a carcass as a human, he WAS BORN as a human.
It is to me. Spirits have not physical bodies like we have. Spirits do not need to learn to walk and talk, they do not grow with time, etc. Bible talks about Jesus as "coming in the flesh" (1 John 4:2,3; 2 John 1:7).
I don't know where you got these ideas from ... NOT from the Bible, sure thing. Nobody can be spirit and flesh at the same time, although the Bible mentions spirits that temporarily "put on" a body to make themselves visible, but they were still spirits "inside" those bodies. Jesus was not; he was born as human.William wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:31 pmYou write as if you think that one loses ones nature [as Spirit] when one goes through a Human Experience.He is not a human with a fleshy body any more. He regained his nature he had before coming here to born as human ... and more.
Jesus clearly tells it differently. He claims to have maintained his nature [understanding himself as Spirit in Human Form and saying so] regardless of the Human Experience.
Phil. 2:6,7
(...) he was existing in God’s form (...) he emptied himself (...) and became human.
Not we, Jehovah's Witnesses. We know a lot about Jesus' prior existence. You should have some Bible classes with one of us to learn what it seems you had not from others.
Moderator Comment
Very true.....what you said about Jesus getting his power from his Father, and could not do anything by his own initiative. But no....not just anyone can be used as a conduit for those abilities from Jehovah. Jesus was the only begotten Son of God and the best that could ever be offered. He was sent from heaven and was a perfect man. No imperfect, sinful human that descended from Adam could take the place of Jesus Christ.William wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:53 pmSo in relation to point #3 in the OP;myth-one.com wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:43 pmI am referring to prayer, not any "prior knowledge".William wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:17 pmTheir claims are all different to Jesus's claim, as none of those billions I have encountered, claim to have gained their knowledge prior to becoming Human.
Jesus did not have power of His own to heal people, raise people from the dead, and perform other miracles. We can know this because Jesus prayed! If He was a God during His thirty-three years on the earth, He could have performed such feats directly with His own godly powers. Since He was a man this was not the case. He had to pray to God His Father to perform acts beyond His human capabilities.
Billions of religionists of various religions gain inspiration from prayer on a daily basis.
He was able to do things which appeared to be magic, but were actually miracles, because they were not the product of human invention [underhanded trickery] but rather the product of some type of channeling. [overhanded [divine] trickery]
You are saying that he wasn't born with those abilities but was gifted them after the fact, by asking for them and that even then they were not his powers but he was acting as a channel and the miracles were performed by the one who was asked [through prayer]?
This implies that anyone can be used as a conduit for said abilities by asking [through prayer], and that the argument is really that those of us who do not channel such power either by not asking or by being rejected, are not actually having a genuine Human Experience.
