Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

[Wootah]

Many here seem to believe Gehenna is just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem and not a reference to hell.

Pulling an argument from this video (around the 16-minute mark):

Mark 9 vs 43-49 says: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Why does Jesus talk about entering into life and the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem in the same sentence? Do you really believe people thought hey let's follow Jesus so we don't go into the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem or do you think they knew Jesus meant hell?

Also since that rubbish tip's fire is quenched now and has been for a long time then doesn't that mean Jesus is a liar when he says that the fire there never shall be quenched?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #68]

No, the sin nature will not live on. It is an integral part of the old order that will then pass away. Sin will not be eternal.

Agreed - for Christians that will be gone. For non-Christians they will get to be fully themselves forever.

Regrettably, but not surprisingly, we have not agreed.

Non-Christians will not get to be anything, other than to be gone for good, gone completely.

That is not going to be happening anywhere, any time, following eternal judgment.

What happens to sinners in your view?

Do you mean at the Judgment, or after the Judgment is completed?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #68]

No, the sin nature will not live on. It is an integral part of the old order that will then pass away. Sin will not be eternal.

Agreed - for Christians that will be gone. For non-Christians they will get to be fully themselves forever.

Regrettably, but not surprisingly, we have not agreed.

Non-Christians will not get to be anything, other than to be gone for good, gone completely.

That is not going to be happening anywhere, any time, following eternal judgment.

What happens to sinners in your view?

Do you mean at the Judgment, or after the Judgment is completed?

You wrote: "That is not going to be happening anywhere, any time, following eternal judgment."

So my question is following eternal judgement, What happens to sinners in your view? Elaborate as much as you wish

[PinSeeker]

For annihilation not to be an everlasting punishment...

Stop right there. There is no way for annihilation to be an everlasting punishment. Annihilation is not everlasting or lasting in any sense, but only fleeting, even momentary. Annihilation would only be ~ could only be ~ a one-time occurrence. It's effect on others would be lasting, possibly for eternity, but that's irrelevant. Annihilation itself would only be an ephemeral ~ adjective; lasting for a very short time ~ punitive action.

A punishment can last forever without having to be experienced.

Nope. See above.

To insist that a punishment must cause unnecessary everlasting torment is a sign that the being which designed the punishment is sadistic.

If a criminal is sentenced to life imprisonment, it is because they've committed a crime worthy of such. If they experience great sadness during that imprisonment, it does not then make the judge sadistic" in any way, but merely the administrator of justice, and a benefactor of society.

Thank you for your thoughts. Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

For annihilation not to be an everlasting punishment...

Stop right there. There is no way for annihilation to be an everlasting punishment. Annihilation is not everlasting or lasting in any sense, but only fleeting, even momentary.

At what point does annihilation wear off?

The process of causing annihilation may be fleeting or momentary, but the annihilation is everlasting!

[2timothy316]

For annihilation not to be an everlasting punishment...

Stop right there. There is no way for annihilation to be an everlasting punishment. Annihilation is not everlasting or lasting in any sense, but only fleeting, even momentary.

At what point does annihilation wear off?

The process of causing annihilation may be fleeting or momentary, but the annihilation is everlasting!

To add to this point with the OP in mind about the actual Gehenna's fires. When did the annihilated and burned up garbage in the Gehenna trash heap stop being burnt garbage? Was it supposed to come back some how as spiritual garbage to be tortured?

[PinSeeker]

At what point does annihilation wear off?

To the one who would experience it the very question itself is irrelevant; there is nothing to wear off because it's over and done with, which is the very opposite of lasting punishment of any kind, much less eternal punishment. To dispute that is on about the same plane as disputing that the sun provides light and heat to our planet. But, so be it.

The process of causing annihilation may be fleeting or momentary, but the annihilation is everlasting!

LOL! See above.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

How can we possibly have a sensible conversation when you don't hold to the actual meaning of words?

Exactly my question to you.

Regarding what word, Pinseeker?

'Eternal' and 'permanent,' to name the two most immediate examples.

No, even after reading your response, there is nothing that shows I have used the words eternal or permanent incorrectly. You simply do not understand how death can be eternal if the person is not alive forever to experience it <- but that is nonsensical.

You have said that annihilation would be a fleeting punishment rather than an eternal one, even though the effect - death - would be eternal. But there you go! The death itself - (which is the sentence) - is eternal.

If a criminal is sentenced to death via electrocution, the criminal does not have to remain alive in a state of electrocution in order for the death penalty to have been received. If there were no resurrection, that would be an eternal death sentence.

I think you will get it, but the point is that 'death' in God's economy is something quite different than what is commonly understood by 'death' from a worldly perspective. Actually, to be more specific and more correct, it IS the same if we are only talking about the physical, or "life under the sun," as Ecclesiastes says. But if you are talking about the spiritual, then it's quite different. We have to distinguish between the natural and the spiritual, not because we just want to... ... but because the Bible does. Having said that, the assertion you made in a previous post was, "What you do not seem to understand is how the punishment can be eternal if there is no eternal suffering to go along with it. But it is not an eternal punishing." So with this statement, you are not distinguishing between the natural and the spiritual, and that's a problem.

Not at all.

Remember that Christ said both the body and 'soul' are destroyed in 'gehenna'.

So it has nothing to do with being unable to distinguish between the natural (or physical) and the spiritual.

To all of this I would say the following:

• I have said this before elsewhere, but we see from the very beginning that death means something far different in God's economy than it does from the human perspective. In Genesis 2:17, God explicitly warned Adam and Eve that they would die that very day if they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In Genesis 3, they did indeed eat from that tree. So, was God mistaken as to what would happen? Or, even more preposterous, did He lie to Adam and Eve about what would happen? No, they died, most assuredly, that very day. But how can that be, since they did not cease to exist? From this, we have to acknowledge that true death, to God, is not a cessation of existence. God promised, in Genesis 3:15, to provide a Way (capital 'W') back... ... but Adam and Eve, both in full existence, were dead and were tossed from the Garden, and, in obedience, walked out. But they were dead.

Adam and Eve are not an example of what happens at the judgment and second death; therefore, you cannot use Adam and Eve to give an example of what the second death means.

We do however have an example that some overlook: Jude 1:7; 2 Peter 2:6

And subsequently, you said, "It is an eternal punishment. Death - as annihilation - is permanent. It is for all time. It is not temporary. There is no coming back from it." Yes, "for all time" regarding annihilation, certainly, once done, it cannot be undone. But only annihilation's effect would be eternal; annihilation would be a once and for all thing, a one-time, instantaneous act. That's exactly the problem. Annihilation itself cannot be experienced throughout eternity and therefore is not eternal (having infinite duration ~ everlasting ~ or continued without intermission ~ perpetual... (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eternal).

To the bold and underlined: and that effect is what? It is DEATH. The second DEATH is eternal. The second death is the punishment that is eternal. You have just said it yourself.



Peace again to you.

[PinSeeker]

No, even after reading your response, there is nothing that shows I have used the words eternal or permanent incorrectly.

Yes, there is, but so be it.

You simply do not understand how death can be eternal if the person is not alive forever to experience it <- but that is nonsensical.

I understand how and why you think that, but you simply do not understand what the second death really is. That's the central disagreement between me (and Wootah with me) and... others. Until we get on the same page regarding that (which, of course, is not going to happen, at least in the short term), there can be no agreement regarding these other things.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

At what point does annihilation wear off?

To the one who would experience it the very question itself is irrelevant; there is nothing to wear off because it's over and done with, which is the very opposite of lasting punishment of any kind, much less eternal punishment.

As soon as one is annihilated, their annihilation is over and done with?

If annihilation is the punishment, it must last forever to be an everlasting punishment!

[JehovahsWitness]

If annihilation is the punishment, it must last forever to be an everlasting punishment!

The punishment is not "annihilation", the punishment (for the wicked) is unending non-existence. Dying or being killed is NOT the punishment; being dead for all eternity is the punishment.


JW


RELATED POSTS

How can death be an eternal punishment?
viewtopic.php?p=1050712#p10507128