Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

[Wootah]

Many here seem to believe Gehenna is just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem and not a reference to hell.

Pulling an argument from this video (around the 16-minute mark):

Mark 9 vs 43-49 says: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Why does Jesus talk about entering into life and the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem in the same sentence? Do you really believe people thought hey let's follow Jesus so we don't go into the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem or do you think they knew Jesus meant hell?

Also since that rubbish tip's fire is quenched now and has been for a long time then doesn't that mean Jesus is a liar when he says that the fire there never shall be quenched?

[PinSeeker]

How can we possibly have a sensible conversation when you don't hold to the actual meaning of words?

Exactly my question to you.

I think we can leave it at that. Thank you for your thoughts.

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Wootah in post #46]

Tomorrow is now now.

I might be misunderstanding your position with others. I agree Jesus was not talking about a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem. He is speaking about hell and eternal judgement where the fire never goes out and their worm never dies, ie: eternal suffering in hell.

Let's make your statement a basis for our exchanges, and see if it helps us into more clarity.

So, please explain,

1. What is "the fire that never goes out"?

2. What does "their worm never dies" refer to?

3. How and why do these two mean, or result in, "eternal suffering in hell"?

[tam]

Peace to you,

How can we possibly have a sensible conversation when you don't hold to the actual meaning of words?

Exactly my question to you.

Regarding what word, Pinseeker?

I think we can leave it at that.

Sure.


Peace again.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #62]

Might not be the best thread because this is on whether Jesus means Gehenna is a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem or more than that.

1. What is "the fire that never goes out"?

The fires in hell. I don't know what hell is like but symbolically God's anger against sin never goes out.

2. What does "their worm never dies" refer to?

Your sin. Rather than having the sin nature die as Christians will have it will live on, sin causes pain now and that will be eternal.

3. How and why do these two mean, or result in, "eternal suffering in hell"?

Living in a place with God's wrath (the fire) and our sin (the worm) is not going to be pleasant.

[PinSeeker]

Not disagreeing, but I think there's a little more to be added to what you say here:

1. What is "the fire that never goes out"?

The fires in hell. I don't know what hell is like but symbolically God's anger against sin never goes out.

God's righteous anger because of sin and His judgement, issued justly once and for all at the Judgment by Jesus at the beginning of eternity and ~ along with the consequences endured because of that judgment ~ never lessening or abating throughout eternity. And the consequenc

2. What does "their worm never dies" refer to?

Your sin. Rather than having the sin nature die as Christians will have it will live on, sin causes pain now and that will be eternal.

Right, and, again enduring the consequences of having been on the wrong side of God's final Judgment. This is their unending anguish, their torment ~ at having not taken advantage of the opportunity afforded them and even their resistance to it when it was readily available ~ their worm that is with them eternally.

3. How and why do these two mean, or result in, "eternal suffering in hell"?

Living in a place with God's wrath (the fire) and our sin (the worm) is not going to be pleasant.

...to put it mildly. I would substitute 'their' for 'our,' here, and add "no longer with any measure whatsoever of God's grace but only His judgment and condemnation," but yeah.

Grace and peace to all.

[2timothy316]

The fires in hell. I don't know what hell is like but symbolically God's anger against sin never goes out.

Where is this said in the Bible?

Are you talking about sin in general or a person that sins?

[PinSeeker]

How can we possibly have a sensible conversation when you don't hold to the actual meaning of words?

Exactly my question to you.

Regarding what word, Pinseeker?

'Eternal' and 'permanent,' to name the two most immediate examples.

And 'death,' for a different reason. Regarding that, I'll give you a seemingly unrelated example. I mean, it is unrelated in the sense that it's a different thing, but related in the sense of what it says about definitions of words, that there are some words in the Bible that are defined differently than from a purely human perspective... than what you or I might read in an English dictionary. So, you don't have to answer this question, but what does 'faith' mean? What is saving faith? Well, you and I both know, because the Bible ~ thus God, as it's His Word ~ defines it for us in Hebrews 11:1. It's an assurance of what is hoped for and unseen, and it's given to us by God Himself (Ephesians 2:8). But that's not how Merriam-Webster or any other English dictionary defines 'faith,' right? Rather, any English dictionary you look at will define it as just a hope and thus a lack of assurance and even akin to a wish.

I think you will get it, but the point is that 'death' in God's economy is something quite different than what is commonly understood by 'death' from a worldly perspective. Actually, to be more specific and more correct, it IS the same if we are only talking about the physical, or "life under the sun," as Ecclesiastes says. But if you are talking about the spiritual, then it's quite different. We have to distinguish between the natural and the spiritual, not because we just want to... ... but because the Bible does. Having said that, the assertion you made in a previous post was, "What you do not seem to understand is how the punishment can be eternal if there is no eternal suffering to go along with it. But it is not an eternal punishing." So with this statement, you are not distinguishing between the natural and the spiritual, and that's a problem. To all of this I would say the following:

• I have said this before elsewhere, but we see from the very beginning that death means something far different in God's economy than it does from the human perspective. In Genesis 2:17, God explicitly warned Adam and Eve that they would die that very day if they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In Genesis 3, they did indeed eat from that tree. So, was God mistaken as to what would happen? Or, even more preposterous, did He lie to Adam and Eve about what would happen? No, they died, most assuredly, that very day. But how can that be, since they did not cease to exist? From this, we have to acknowledge that true death, to God, is not a cessation of existence. God promised, in Genesis 3:15, to provide a Way (capital 'W') back... ... but Adam and Eve, both in full existence, were dead and were tossed from the Garden, and, in obedience, walked out. But they were dead.

• What you do not seem to understand is that the punishment ~ penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure; severe, rough, or disastrous treatment (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment) ~ cannot be considered eternal but only ephemeral ~ lasting a very short time (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ephemeral) ~ if there is no experience of that punishment by the one punished.

And subsequently, you said, "It is an eternal punishment. Death - as annihilation - is permanent. It is for all time. It is not temporary. There is no coming back from it." Yes, "for all time" regarding annihilation, certainly, once done, it cannot be undone. But only annihilation's effect would be eternal; annihilation would be a once and for all thing, a one-time, instantaneous act. That's exactly the problem. Annihilation itself cannot be experienced throughout eternity and therefore is not eternal (having infinite duration ~ everlasting ~ or continued without intermission ~ perpetual... (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eternal).

I think we can leave it at that.

Sure.

Very good. Although now... ... I don't expect you to leave this alone.

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #62]

Might not be the best thread because this is on whether Jesus means Gehenna is a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem or more than that.

1. What is "the fire that never goes out"?

The fires in hell. I don't know what hell is like but symbolically God's anger against sin never goes out.

There aren't any fires in hell. Dante's Inferno is fantasy.

But yes, it is God's anger, yet not His anger against sin in a general sense.

It is very specific.

It is what He pours out in full measure upon unrepentant and unforgiven
sinners at the Judgment on the last day of this old order.

Unquenchable, unrelenting, eternal.

2. What does "their worm never dies" refer to?

Your sin. Rather than having the sin nature die as Christians will have it will live on, sin causes pain now and that will be eternal.=/quote]

No, the sin nature will not live on. It is an integral part of the old order that will then pass away. Sin will not be eternal.

3. How and why do these two mean, or result in, "eternal suffering in hell"?

Living in a place with God's wrath (the fire) and our sin (the worm) is not going to be pleasant.

That is not going to be happening anywhere, any time, following eternal judgment.

The Lord bless and keep you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #68]

No, the sin nature will not live on. It is an integral part of the old order that will then pass away. Sin will not be eternal.

Agreed - for Christians that will be gone. For non-Christians they will get to be fully themselves forever.

That is not going to be happening anywhere, any time, following eternal judgment.

What happens to sinners in your view?

[myth-one.com]

Annihilation itself cannot be experienced throughout eternity and therefore is not eternal (having infinite duration ~ everlasting ~ or continued without intermission ~ perpetual... (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eternal).

For annihilation not to be an everlasting punishment, a person annihilated today, would have to be able to become un-annihilated sometime in the future.

If that is impossible, then annihilation is an everlasting punishment.

The wages of sin is death.

Life is taken away from non-believers for all eternity.

A punishment can last forever without having to be experienced.

To insist that a punishment must cause unnecessary everlasting torment is a sign that the being which designed the punishment is sadistic.