Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead

[Wootah]

https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm

37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”

Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?

[William]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #20]

Interesting to see different views on the best answer to my question here. Is there a generally accepted way to resolve different interpretations like these?

The best thing to do is to bring it back to the basics and answer the question, what is the condition of the dead?
Read Ecc chapter 9.
https://biblehub.com/bsb/ecclesiastes/9.htm

What do you discern from that chapter about the fundamental condition of the dead?

What I discern from the read is that the author had a particular belief about humans and didn't think Humans actually knew what righteousness, wisdom, love or hate were.
The author believed that all Humans regardless of how they behaved, ended up dead.

The author believed that when anything is alive there is hope in that thing - because a living thing is better than a dead thing.

The author gets real down on Humans who hope there is more to live after life. Totally negative.

It is possible that the author has suffered some terrible thing at the hands of Humans to write such dismal remarks of opinion. The author sees no good thing about Humans - or for that matter - about being Human herself/himself.

[v11]
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

I wonder where the author returned from, in order to see things about Life on Earth, in this, apparently, new way.

The author believes Wisdom is better than Strength and that the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.
I wonder if the author realized that to get the word out one has to be able to afford to, and so it is not necessarily a case of being "despised". Perhaps the author considered her/himself to being wise and despised the fact that she/he was too poor to broadcast that wisdom out into the wider awareness of the public.

She/he feels that the "words of wise men" are heard in quiet more than the howls of those that rule among fools. A clear case of ad hominem leaking through to the authors exteriors.

Clearly too, the author started out with the premise that no Human knows what wisdom [or being righteous, etc] is, and finishes the argument by informing us that she/he "knows" what wisdom is.

Clearly this personality would need psychiatric assistance with broadening their appreciation for the world, so to learn to see the wood from the trees.

Certainly her/his words ring hollow in the face of the accomplishments of modern man, and any who follow after such opinion as "the truth" in today's world, are too gloomy in their outlook/attitude of life - something I personally don't think is wise to hang around ones neck, or for that matter, to take with them into the Next Phase, which they will be experiencing immediately after their bodies expire in this one, because - you know...if you hope to "resurrect" and that turns out to be the case for you, it will happen immediately in relation to your awareness - there will be no sense of time having past. so whether time actually did or didn't go by, is besides the point.

Any negative baggage you have will be there with you as if it had never left.

[Checkpoint]

https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm

37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”

Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?

To man right now, they are dead. This "right now" is always changing, as we are subject to time.

God however. is not subject to time, so His "right now" continues for as long as He chooses. He knows all that has been, is, and will be.

Thus, as Paul points out, He is:

Romans 4:17

—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that do not exist as though they do.

[Revelations won]

Wootah wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:16 pm
https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?

They are dead as in they no longer exist in any form. However as Jesus explained, to God they are alive in that He keeps a perfect memory of them and will one day restore them to life on earth. We call this phenonemen a resurrection.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS


Onewithhim said

“All of the old patriarchs are still dead. The Scripture you quoted says that, although they are dead, they are alive TO HIM. Jehovah remembers every detail about the dead people so that they are alive to him, in his memory. They are not literally alive. I remember that Jesus said that he will resurrect people "in the last day" (John 6:40,44), and this will include Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

My responses:

I think that much of the confusion on this topic can be cleared up by further examination of the scriptures.

First, we should clearly understand That we are literally the spirit offspring of God.

Second, we should clearly understand that man is then given an earthly body created by the union of two mortal parents.

Thus, this union of our earthly body created by our earthly parents is joined with our spirit body created by God, forming a living soul.

To further illustrate this, let us first observe what we are taught in:

Ecclesiastes 12:
7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

From this we learn that our physical bodies at death decay and return to the earth. Our spirit bodies return to God who gave it.

As Job pointed out in

Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Note what we are taught in:

Psalms 82:
6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Observe what we are Taught in:

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Also consider what we are taught in:

1 Corinthians. 6:
20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Observe what we are taught in:

Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

James further taught:

James 12:
26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Consider also what our merciful Christ did before his ressurection as found in the following:

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

From the preceding we observe that at death there is a separation of our physical body from our spirit body. The physical body is the only part of us that dies (until the time of our resurrection. Our spirit body returns to “God who gave it”.


From the above it should bed so duly noted That Abraham, Isaac,Jacob, Moses and others did truly exist as spirit children of God after their death and also prior to their resurrection further fulfilled addition parts of their mission as noted in the following:

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


We also have a second witness of the above as found in:

Mark:1And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3
And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Yes indeed their physical bodies had temporarily died until their day of resurrection, but their spirit bodies were yet very much alive.

In response to those who presented a false claim that “Abraham, Issac, and Jacob are still dead, I submit the following:

Matthew 27:50
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Kind regards,
RW

[onewithhim]

Wootah wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:16 pm
https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?

They are dead as in they no longer exist in any form. However as Jesus explained, to God they are alive in that He keeps a perfect memory of them and will one day restore them to life on earth. We call this phenonemen a resurrection.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS


Onewithhim said

“All of the old patriarchs are still dead. The Scripture you quoted says that, although they are dead, they are alive TO HIM. Jehovah remembers every detail about the dead people so that they are alive to him, in his memory. They are not literally alive. I remember that Jesus said that he will resurrect people "in the last day" (John 6:40,44), and this will include Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

My responses:

I think that much of the confusion on this topic can be cleared up by further examination of the scriptures.

First, we should clearly understand That we are literally the spirit offspring of God.

Second, we should clearly understand that man is then given an earthly body created by the union of two mortal parents.

Thus, this union of our earthly body created by our earthly parents is joined with our spirit body created by God, forming a living soul.

To further illustrate this, let us first observe what we are taught in:

Ecclesiastes 12:
7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

From this we learn that our physical bodies at death decay and return to the earth. Our spirit bodies return to God who gave it.

None of those verses says that we have "spirit bodies." There is not even a hint at that. It says, "the spirit shall return to God who gave it." That says nothing about "spirit bodies." The spirit that returns to God is his active force that keeps a person alive, the force that started the person to breathe in the first place. It is God's manifestation of power, to make a person alive and keep him alive.

"Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life," and the man came to be a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) This shows what the spirit is that returns to God, in the sense that He has received back, so to speak, the life that the person had, and all future conditions of the person rest with Him.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #20]

Interesting to see different views on the best answer to my question here. Is there a generally accepted way to resolve different interpretations like these?

Not sure what you really mean by that, but I would say prayer, of course, and just spending time in God's Word, because it's not just a book. Along with prayer, God's Word is formative... He -- by His Spirit -- will make us into what He wants us to be.

Apologies for a delay in replying.

I see that the debate has moved on somewhat, but it occurs to me that there are several verses in the Bible that are being offered (to varying degrees) as evidence to support quite different theories on the matter of death, souls and spirit bodies. Several people in this thread have offered different verses and their interpretations. What I haven't seen is any 'third-party support' offered for those positions, so I'm left wondering how one best weighs up the likelihood of any one opinion here being more likely true than another.

By way of comparison, in Judaism there's the Talmud and Midrash, which (among other uses) are often used as authoritative references for biblical interpretation. And I've learned (on this site), that Jehovahs Witnesses defer to their Governing Body for interpretations.

Given the rules for TT&D, I'm not really here to challenge any and all biblical claims about the topic. However, I'd point out that when verses that seem to be only tangentially related to the topic are used in evidence to support a claim, a charge of 'cherry picking' might not be unreasonable. For that reason, I'm asking whether there's a generally accepted 'authority' that could help ascertain whether verse X held more weight than verse Y for a particular topic.

[William]

Wootah wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:16 pm
https://biblehub.com/luke/20-38.htm
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”
Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive or dead right now?

They are dead as in they no longer exist in any form. However as Jesus explained, to God they are alive in that He keeps a perfect memory of them and will one day restore them to life on earth. We call this phenonemen a resurrection.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS


Onewithhim said

“All of the old patriarchs are still dead. The Scripture you quoted says that, although they are dead, they are alive TO HIM. Jehovah remembers every detail about the dead people so that they are alive to him, in his memory. They are not literally alive. I remember that Jesus said that he will resurrect people "in the last day" (John 6:40,44), and this will include Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

My responses:

I think that much of the confusion on this topic can be cleared up by further examination of the scriptures.

First, we should clearly understand That we are literally the spirit offspring of God.

Second, we should clearly understand that man is then given an earthly body created by the union of two mortal parents.

Thus, this union of our earthly body created by our earthly parents is joined with our spirit body created by God, forming a living soul.

To further illustrate this, let us first observe what we are taught in:

Ecclesiastes 12:
7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

From this we learn that our physical bodies at death decay and return to the earth. Our spirit bodies return to God who gave it.

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


We also have a second witness of the above as found in:

Mark:1And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3
And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Yes indeed their physical bodies had temporarily died until their day of resurrection, but their spirit bodies were yet very much alive.

In response to those who presented a false claim that “Abraham, Issac, and Jacob are still dead, I submit the following:

Matthew 27:50
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

None of those verses says that we have "spirit bodies." There is not even a hint at that. It says, "the spirit shall return to God who gave it." That says nothing about "spirit bodies."

I don't know how anyone can claim what you are claiming, based upon the supporting evidence of the actual story. How can spirits arise and go into town and be observed by many, if they did not have bodies which people could see?

[William]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #36]

Given the rules for TT&D, I'm not really here to challenge any and all biblical claims about the topic. However, I'd point out that when verses that seem to be only tangentially related to the topic are used in evidence to support a claim, a charge of 'cherry picking' might not be unreasonable. For that reason, I'm asking whether there's a generally accepted 'authority' that could help ascertain whether verse X held more weight than verse Y for a particular topic.

From what I can tell, Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma sub-forum is tailor-made for the purpose of folk arguing/debating the different interpretations of said script, so in that, while an observer might see cherry picking or even special-pleading [to have a place where the bible can't be challenged'], yet it obviously can be - at least indirectly - , because in this place that is exactly what is being done - only it is not the Bible per se, so much as it is the different interpretations of the Bible which can be and are being challenged.

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #29]

JW, Eloi, 2Tim,

If God cannot forget things and being in God's memory banks is to be alive (even if asleep) then how can anyone be annihilated?

[2timothy316]

And I've learned (on this site), that Jehovahs Witnesses defer to their Governing Body for interpretations.

I, being a Jehovah's Witness, did not defer to a GB interpretation. I asked that you read Ecc chapter 9 and then asked what you thought it said about the condition of the dead.
viewtopic.php?p=1047571#p1047571

Read Ecc chapter 9 and then you tell me if dead people are aware of what is happening to them. Unlike others on this thread, I'm not giving you an interpretation of any sort. I'm not asking you to conjure an interpretation either. I'm asking for a simple reading comprehension exercise in exegesis, using your own reasoning skills by reading a chapter in the Bible. You will see many others using eisegesis. If you'd like a detailed explanation of the two go here, https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html it does a really good job of explaining the two ways to approach reading the Bible. And this is not a link to a GB explanation of exegesis and eisegesis.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #29]

JW, Eloi, 2Tim,

If God cannot forget things and being in God's memory banks is to be alive (even if asleep) then how can anyone be annihilated?

For God to simply remember a person doesn't make them alive. It is if God considers them alive. Annihilation is the annihilation of the person's life, they will never be among the living ever again.

"If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes." Job 14:14
Only the righteous are to be recalled to life. They are waiting for their 'relief' from death. They will have bodies, a mind, able to think again and have a life again.

For the unrighteous, "Jehovah guards all those who love him, But all the wicked he will annihilate." - Ps 145:20
There is no relief for the unrighteous. To God they are dead and they will stay that way. Never will they have a bodies, a mind, never to be able to think again, nor will they have a life ever again.

Whether or not an unrighteous person is completely forgotten from His memory or not is not stated word for word in the Bible. Regardless, if a Jehovah says a person is annihilated then they are someone we will never have to worry about living again, with a human body or in a spirit body.