Good reason

[nobspeople]

In a different thread (listed below), when discussing, in part, if the bible is true, TRANSPONDER said " It is a well known argument that asserting what is in the Bible is true because it is in the Bible is a fallacy. A Lawyer would know that a witness statement is not going to be accepted as true just because he or she has said it. Nor of course rejected without good reason."

The above bolded section caused me to think (not claiming this is TRANSPNDER's assertion): is there good reason to think the bible isn't true?

For discussion: Is there good reason (define what is 'good reason' to you) to think the bible is or is not true*?

*TRUE here being used as 'legitimate, real word of God which was written by men, inspired by God' - this would assume everything written in it is true and agreed upon by God - in other words, nothing written is personal opinion of the writer.



Reference viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38540&start=10

[brunumb]

We've got folks taking horse medicine to treat covid.

Sometimes it takes more'n "do this obvious thing" to get folks to do stuff.

Surely having the son of God himself delivering the message might have some convincing power.

[TRANSPONDER]

We have been getting some of the usual arguments for crediting the Bible. Some good things and handy advice is all very well, but humans can do that, too. And the point is well taken that there is some bad stuff, too.

So we get some attempts to show that the bad stuff (slavery for instance) wasn't so bad, or it wasn't actually what it looked like (it is. Slavery is slavery, no matter that some rules for humane slavery are put in place). We also know of the excuse that God had to go along with what humans were used to doing.

That one won't wash; God was perfectly capable of saying 'Don't do this or you will get smitten'.

I also noted an effort to get around the fact that Tyre wasn't destroyed. The argument that Tyre was destroyed but a different city was built and called Tyre is a bit of a swindle. In fact Tyre was not destroyed but somewhat damaged and was up and running in a couple of years and was there in Jesus and Paul's time and is still there today, and the fact that a lot of new buildings have been slapped on top of the old foundations does not alter that.

While we're at it, Babylon was not destroyed but carried on as the capital of the Persian Satrapy of Babylon and continued as a Capital though the Hellenistic period and into the Persian empires of the Parthians and Sassanids until it was moved to Cstesiphon. That is as failed a prophecy as one would want.

So the message is loud and clear - the Bible is the work of men, not of a god and it has to be judged accordingly, whether they got things right or wrong.

[We_Are_VENOM]

In a different thread (listed below), when discussing, in part, if the bible is true, TRANSPONDER said " It is a well known argument that asserting what is in the Bible is true because it is in the Bible is a fallacy. A Lawyer would know that a witness statement is not going to be accepted as true just because he or she has said it. Nor of course rejected without good reason."

Nah. It works both ways.

You cant logically say its true because it is in the Bible...and you also cant logically conclude that it isnt true because it is in the Bible.

What you have to do is explore the reasons given for/against the Bible's validity, and draw conclusions based on whether there is persuasive evidence on either side which suits your fancy.

*TRUE here being used as 'legitimate, real word of God which was written by men, inspired by God' - this would assume everything written in it is true and agreed upon by God - in other words, nothing written is personal opinion of the writer.

I think the Bible/Christianity is true based upon the historical evidence presented in its favor.

The evidence against Christianity falls short of the persuasion factor

[TRANSPONDER]

In a different thread (listed below), when discussing, in part, if the bible is true, TRANSPONDER said " It is a well known argument that asserting what is in the Bible is true because it is in the Bible is a fallacy. A Lawyer would know that a witness statement is not going to be accepted as true just because he or she has said it. Nor of course rejected without good reason."

Nah. It works both ways.

You cant logically say its true because it is in the Bible...and you also cant logically conclude that it isnt true because it is in the Bible.

What you have to do is explore the reasons given for/against the Bible's validity, and draw conclusions based on whether there is persuasive evidence on either side which suits your fancy.

*TRUE here being used as 'legitimate, real word of God which was written by men, inspired by God' - this would assume everything written in it is true and agreed upon by God - in other words, nothing written is personal opinion of the writer.

I think the Bible/Christianity is true based upon the historical evidence presented in its favor.

The evidence against Christianity falls short of the persuasion factor

Some nice points there. I agree that you can't either automatically accept what is in the Bible or reject it just because it is is the Bible. In fact I believe that's what I said.

Of course it is up to the individual to decide whether the 'historical evidence' supports the Bible or whether the 'evidence against Christianity' is persuasive or falls short.

Asserting one or the other won't do. What is a good reason to either accept the Bible or Reject is surely whether it is factually sound. Whether it is inspiring, motivating for Good (if it does) or has Good Things in it are not good reasons to assert that it is believable. Many other books can inspire motivate for Good (or not) r have Good things in them. That does not mean they are not open to question and doubt .

Whether historical facts backs up the Bile or evidence against the NT is adequate to debunk it falls outside the scope of this thread, or so it seems to me. Best refer to subject - specific threads.

[JoeyKnothead]

We've got folks taking horse medicine to treat covid.

Sometimes it takes more'n "do this obvious thing" to get folks to do stuff.

Surely having the son of God himself delivering the message might have some convincing power.

Naw, they booed Trump when he suggested folks get the vacine in Cullman, Alabama.

Funny enough, Cullman had issued a covid alert just two days prior to the event.

Stop this ride, I wanna get off.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #14]

You cant logically say its true because it is in the Bible...and you also cant logically conclude that it isnt true because it is in the Bible.

Agreed. Which is why, personally, I don't make such statements as fact. Some, however, outright say otherwise. Do I think most of it is stupidly terrible and wrong? Yes. Are there some points that should be followed? Sure. Are there some parts of it that are true or point to real occurrences? Probably. Is it enough for me, a former christian of decades, to say 'it's true, real and makes total sense'? Only when pigs fly. And then still, no.

What you have to do is explore the reasons given for/against the Bible's validity, and draw conclusions based on whether there is persuasive evidence on either side which suits your fancy.

Agreed. Which is why believing the bible is up to the individual. It's not a history or science document. It's a book written by men (some of whom claim they were inspired by God) about things in a time we, today, don't know enough about sociologically or politically to claim 'yes, everything happened exactly as described'. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And there's plenty of extraordinary claims in the bible.

As with any belief, it's up to the individual to decide based on what every 'evidence' (or lack of) they deem appropriate for their chosen agenda.

[OnceConvinced]

Sure. A multitude of reasons to believe it's not true:

- Many books written by many people with differing perspectives not consistent with each other.
- God did not provide an already translated bible for all languages.
- The bible contains blatant lies. eg: God's existance is obvious to all, Seek and ye shall find, All things will be made known when needed, etc etc.
-the bible contains broken promises eg we will do greater works than Jesus, all things will be known when needed.
-the bible contains contradictions. (Of course most Christians try to claim there are none, but we know that's not true.)
-We cannot get a proper English translation of the bible. Should be easy for a God to provide us with one shouldn’t it?
-the bible contains a lot of inaccurate science. eg bats = birds, order of creation.
-the bible contains unfulfilled prophecies. eg Jesus is returning. And he was meant to return in the lifetime of some of those who saw him die (And I know many Christians will try to dance around that by redefining words).
-the bible contains absurd stories that cannot possibly be true. (eg babies wrestling in their mother’s womb, men being swallowed by giant fish and surviving)
-the bible illustrates a God with horrible morals which I just can't possibly believe would exist.
-the bible is full of atrocities committed by this God
-the bible can be used to defend any crazy belief you want. thus we have all sorts of denominations and cults.
-the bible contains much out of touch and sometimes bad advice. eg turn the other cheek, bless your enemies.
-the bible contains mythological creatures
-The bible God endorses slavery (yes the bad type, not the watered down one many Christians try to promote. Even so it's still owning another human being, which is immoral in anyone's books)
-The bible God sees women as possessions of men
-the bible seems way too much like the word of ignorant man than the word of God
-God’s ignorance of mankind. You would think our creator would understand us better.
-God’s ignorance of the universe. You would think the creator would know how is own creations work!
-the bible needs a branch of defence known as "apologetics" to justify it and cover up the above list of things.
-The disciples faith was very weak considering they were rubbing shoulders with the so-called son of God.
-The gospels are hearsay, not eye witness accounts.
-the gospels were adapted to reach target audiences.
-Paul was blatantly mistaken about so many things, but yet Christians still use a lot of his teachings. eg, he said he had preached the gospel to every living creature under the sun.
-Just-so stories. Particularly in the book of Genesis we see what are obviously “just so” stories, not literal history. Yet Christians often take these stories as true! (And so did the so-called son of God!)

[Eloi]

The Bible contains reasonable answers to many questions that people ask. For example: where does life come from, what happens when a living being dies, why is there so much suffering in the world, what is the future of humanity and the planet, etc.

It gives effective advice on matters of daily life, and despite being such an ancient document, his advice still yields the results expected of a book of higher wisdom.

The Bible contains many prophecies, and many of them were fulfilled in great detail, which offers full confidence that the few that remain to be fulfilled will also be so.

The Bible has survived all the struggle that many human institutions have made to prevent it and its content from becoming known, and if it were an ordinary book long ago it would have been silenced. Contrary to that, it is the most printed book on the entire planet.

The Bible contains a compendium of historical events in chronological form and in great detail. The origin of Jesus can be traced, for example, from the very first man who was created. It also offers a compendium of historical characters, ancient places that no longer exist, and narratives of events that could not be known were it not for it.

It is obvious that the information in the Bible is not of human origin. Best of all, it makes our Creator known to us and tells us what He is going to do in favor of humans who decide to live according to his just standards, and what will happen to bad people who harm the planet and its inhabitants.

[JoeyKnothead]

Edit: mispeld Inglorious.

The Bible contains reasonable answers to many questions that people ask. For example: where does life come from...

The bible fails to establish the existence of the very god it promotes, it's far from reasonable then to conclude it's claims regarding a god's involvement in the creation of life are truthful.

...what happens when a living being dies,

Ressurrectioning has never been shown to occur.

why is there so much suffering in the world,

Life's hard, no god involved.

What is the future of humanity and the planet, etc.

Do you trust them fortune tellers that advertise on TV?

It gives effective advice on matters of daily life,

I'm just not seeing folks poking sticks in the ground to induce changes in the colors or patterns of their animals.

and despite being such an ancient document, his advice still yields the results expected of a book of higher wisdom.

Do you think it's wise to poke sticks in the ground in an effort to alter the colors or patterns of animals?

The Bible contains many prophecies, and many of them were fulfilled in great detail, which offers full confidence that the few that remain to be fulfilled will also do so.

Please offer one (or more) of such prophecies for analysis.

The Bible has survived all the struggle that many human institutions have made to prevent it from becoming known, and if it were an ordinary book long ago it would have been silenced. Contrary to that, it is the most printed book on the entire planet.

Argument from numbers. There's a bunch of books regarding some girl stepping through a mirror. Do you think girls can step through mirrors?

The Bible contains a compendium of historical events in chronological form and in great detail.

Many works of fiction are presented in chronological order and in great detail.

The origin of Jesus can be traced, for example,

There's not one person alive who can reliably show that gods and humans can interbreed, nor that Jesus existed if they could.

from the very first man who was created.

Nope. Can't confirm the veracity of this claim if ya talked til ya was blue in the face.

It also offers a compendium of historical characters, ancient places that no longer exist, and narratives of events that could not be known were it not for it.

Inglorious Basterds references historical characters, ancient places that no longer exist, and narratives that could not be known were it not for it.

It is obvious that the information in the Bible is not of human origin.

Another claim that won't hold to scrutinity.

Best of all, it makes our Creator known to us and tells us what He is going to do in favor of humans who decide to live according to his just standards

Just try to put you some truth to that claim.

and what will happen to bad people who harm the planet and its inhabitants.

Is God gonna hurt the bad man?

You've got here more empty, unsuportable, unprovable claims than Dunkin's got donuts.

[JoeyKnothead]

Sure. A multitude of reasons to believe it's not true:

- Many books written by many people with differing perspectives not consistent with each other.
- God did not provide an already translated bible for all languages.
- The bible contains blatant lies. eg: God's existance is obvious to all, Seek and ye shall find, All things will be made known when needed, etc etc.
-the bible contains broken promises eg we will do greater works than Jesus, all things will be known when needed.
-the bible contains contradictions. (Of course most Christians try to claim there are none, but we know that's not true.)
-We cannot get a proper English translation of the bible. Should be easy for a God to provide us with one shouldn’t it?
-the bible contains a lot of inaccurate science. eg bats = birds, order of creation.
-the bible contains unfulfilled prophecies. eg Jesus is returning. And he was meant to return in the lifetime of some of those who saw him die (And I know many Christians will try to dance around that by redefining words).
-the bible contains absurd stories that cannot possibly be true. (eg babies wrestling in their mother’s womb, men being swallowed by giant fish and surviving)
-the bible illustrates a God with horrible morals which I just can't possibly believe would exist.
-the bible is full of atrocities committed by this God
-the bible can be used to defend any crazy belief you want. thus we have all sorts of denominations and cults.
-the bible contains much out of touch and sometimes bad advice. eg turn the other cheek, bless your enemies.
-the bible contains mythological creatures
-The bible God endorses slavery (yes the bad type, not the watered down one many Christians try to promote. Even so it's still owning another human being, which is immoral in anyone's books)
-The bible God sees women as possessions of men
-the bible seems way too much like the word of ignorant man than the word of God
-God’s ignorance of mankind. You would think our creator would understand us better.
-God’s ignorance of the universe. You would think the creator would know how is own creations work!
-the bible needs a branch of defence known as "apologetics" to justify it and cover up the above list of things.
-The disciples faith was very weak considering they were rubbing shoulders with the so-called son of God.
-The gospels are hearsay, not eye witness accounts.
-the gospels were adapted to reach target audiences.
-Paul was blatantly mistaken about so many things, but yet Christians still use a lot of his teachings. eg, he said he had preached the gospel to every living creature under the sun.
-Just-so stories. Particularly in the book of Genesis we see what are obviously “just so” stories, not literal history. Yet Christians often take these stories as true!

Those are the highlights.

The one that cracks me up is the stick poking in the ground, and how bout that, blue hamburgers.